You are browsing the archive for 2009 April.

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by Swade

News sources name some interesting suitors for Saab

April 28, 2009 in Archive

There are reports in from both Dagens Industri and TTELA naming some interesting names in the chase for Saab.
I’ve covered bits of the Dagens report via Reuters earlier, but I’ll cover it again here to tie it all up here in one post so the conversation is concentrated in one place.
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Latest news indicates that Deutsche Bank are asking around 10 of the initial 27 suitors who signed confidentiality agreements to discuss their intentions for the company, which will go some way to whittling down this group to the four or five who will be asked to submit a bid for Saab.
We’re getting to the pointy end, people. Saab’s initial reorganisation period ends on May 20 (or is it May 19??) and I’m sure all parties would like to get these preliminaries tied away prior to asking for another three-month extension.
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So, the suitors and the way they’re described.
Geely – have previously denied any interest but were reported to be in Sweden getting the grand tour in the last few weeks.
Koenigsegg - the one we’re all hoping for, though it may be for all the wrong reasons. Romantically, they must be the favourite.
US investors – their identities are unknown, but DI report that there’s some US money sniffing around, and they’re big players. More than one of them, apparently.
Both TTELA and DI note that Chinese company Chery have received state approval to go forth and multiply. Chery are China’s biggest privately owned car company.
TTELA also mention BMW and Hyundai as possibilities. Hyundai I can see, BMW I can’t. I just don’t see why they’d have the need to stray from their formula with something in a similar market space.
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Let’s not forget the potential suitor that they didn’t mention in those articles – the Norwegians and Think! I wrote about them last week:
Norwegian State is one of the speculators who have been in and looked at Trollhättan Saab, writes the newspaper GT today.

According to a source within GM, representatives of the Norwegian Government have been in Trollhättan and looked at the factory. It should, according to data, act on a wager on a Swedish built hybrid electric with Norwegian origin.

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Geely and Chery would have to be considered outsiders. One thing a potential investor will have to do is obtain loan guarantees from the Swedish government. There is a train of thought in both articles that the Swedes would be concerned about both the loss of jobs to China, and the loss of technological know-how to China.
The marraige of two Swedish companies, one of whom is a 62-year-old Swedish sporting and design icon and the other being an upstart supercar maker working out of an aircraft hangar. Reportedly, Koenigsegg made their tour in the company of a venture capital representative. Can Koenigsegg, a small quantity manufacturer manage a volume producer, even one of Saab’s small size? I’d love to find out.
The thought of US investors makes me nervous. Unless they’ve got heaps of money, so much so that they won’t try and six-sigma the company out of its identity, I’d be wary. Yes, recent experience may have something to do with this.
Hyundai are kicking goals wherever they go at the moment, though I wonder how it’s going to work out in the long run. Their recent sales efforts in the US, where they guarantee to take your car back with no penalty if you lose your job, have led to great sales numbers, but it could come back to bite them big-time in 2010 when the full effect of the global financial crisis may be felt. They are building much better cars, though.

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by Swade

Tuesday quick snippets

April 28, 2009 in Archive

I forgot to mention yesterday that I’m on the road again at the moment. Consequently, I won’t get to everything as quickly as I’d like, but I have got pretty good access on this trip.
Postings may not be as timely as usual. That’s all.
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In case you missed the links in comments…..
Our Belgian mate, Etienne, has more photos from the regularity rally at Spa in Belgium.
The Saab 9-5 has been spotted again, this time paying its obligatory dues at the Nurburgring. The four photos are best viewed at Autobild, from #6 onwards.
Saab9-5Nurburgring.JPG
As the cops say on TV, there’s not thing too see here. Nothing that we haven’t seen before, at least. Please move on.
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GM have killed Pontiac, which means that the Holden people in Melbourne are probably filling their trousers with something other than their legs right now.
Holden are basically kept afloat as a manufacturer here in Australia by the export program around the Commodore. They expected to build and ship around 30,000 of them as Pontiac G8s, a program that’s now down the gurgler.
The one possible saviour – which makes perfect sense, by the way – could be the addition of a G8-type vehicle to the Chevrolet portfolio. Personally speaking, if they don’t do this then they’re absolutely crackers, which means they probably won’t.

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by Swade

Speedparts at the Bilsport Performance Show

April 28, 2009 in Archive

The Speedparts T-shirt features one of my favourite slogans….

SPEEDPARTS – That’s why I’m FASTER than you!

You might not be into performance Saabs or radical modified Saabs, but if you are then Speedparts do some phenomenal work.
Some of this work was on display recently at the Bilsport Performance Show. This is just a few of the radical and very tasty Saab collection they had on display there.
There are heaps more photos at Speedparts’ own gallery from the event.
Click to enlarge, and my thanks to Kristjan for the tip!

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by Swade

From 27 down to 10 suitors for Saab

April 28, 2009 in Archive

Dagens Industri reported recently that Geely have had a tour of the Saab facility in the last few weeks. They also claim that some US investors have stuck their heads in for a look around.
Today, via Reuters, they’re also reporting that out of the 27 parties that originally signed confidentiality agreements, Saab have asked 10 of these parties for more details about their intentions and plans for Saab.

STOCKHOLM, April 27 (Reuters) – Chinese auto group Geely has visited Saab Automobile, the Swedish carmaker put up for sale by General Motors, a Swedish business newspaper said on Monday.
Citing a source close to the situation, Dagens Industri also said 10 potential suitors from the group of 27 parties Saab said earlier this month it had signed confidentiality agreements with had been asked to provide more details of their intentions.
“Representatives for Geely were at Saab for an entire day,” the source was quoted as saying. A number U.S.-based investment firms had also visited the carmaker for presentations.
Saab was not immediately available for comment.

I’m not happy about the focus on Geely, but I think that’s only because it’s one of the few concrete, identified parties we’ve got, I don’t think they’re a serious contender.
Right now, if I was a betting man, I’d place my money on whoever Vattenfall are tied up with, which I think might be the Norwegians. I get the feeling that we’re going to see a Saab/Think! tie-up of sorts.
And that may not be a bad thing.
I have no info to support any of that, by the way, it’s just my own hunch.

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A quick lesson in GM Media management

April 27, 2009 in Archive

To those looking to embark upon a writing venture where you’ll be reporting on the activities of a certain company (any company). To those currently engaging in this practice. To those looking for some assurance about the activities of a certain company (any company)……
……here’s why you look for inside sources.
Automotive News, April 24

General Motors is preparing to announce early next week that the Pontiac brand will be eliminated, said a source familiar with the company’s plans.

Just about every other news service ran with a similar story late last week.
Then we had this:
GM Media Press Release, April 24

Contrary to media speculation, General Motors has not announced any changes to its long-term viability plan or to the future status of any of its brands. GM is continuing to review its restructuring plan to go further and faster and best ensure its future success. Additional information will be released as any decisions are finalized.

And finally, the death rattle.
GM Media Press Release, April 27

As part of the revised Viability Plan and the need to move faster and further, GM in the U.S. will focus its resources on four core brands, Chevrolet, Cadillac, Buick and GMC. The Pontiac brand will be phased out by the end of 2010.

The lesson, if you didn’t know already: Official sources will only tell you want they want you to know, when they want you to know it.
I enjoy a good relationship with Saab contacts in Sweden, but I know that they generally adhere to this rule. If I’m told something, it’s generally because it’s announcement is imminent or even already made.
I jepeaordise that relationship from time to time because some facts come to me earlier via inside sources and I report them here, but only with the best interests of the company’s supporters at heart.
Some of these PR people don’t get that and if they’d like to hold it against me and others like me, so be it. I can live with that. But I hope they don’t think that SU is merely a repository for manufactured information such the type that GM tried to push with the Pontiac escape.
Again, if Saab want to get on the front foot with the media, they should run their own media outlet and remove the middleman between them and their community.
Want to control the news? Break it yourself.

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by Swade

Old Timer Saabs out and about in Belgium

April 27, 2009 in Archive

It seems as if Belgium is the center of the Saab-i-verse at the moment.
Last week we had Saab’s future on show in the form of the 9-3x and 9-4x at a dealership event. Now, this past weekend, there were three classic Saabs taking part in an old timer rally at Spa.
Saab Belgium, through Beherman European, their importer, was one of the main sponsors of the oldimer rally called ‘ING Ardenne Roads’. It was held at Spa, Francorchamps.
Saab participated with 3 cars, all of which are owned by Beherman. The cars driven b were:
- a two-stroke Saab 93
- a V4 Saab 96
- a Saab Sonnet III
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The rally was a regularity event, meaning that it’s not such hard going on the vehicles. In a regularity event, vehicles do a number of preliminary laps and then select a time from those preliminary laps that they try to match. Subsequent laps have to be as close as possible to that time, with the winner being the vehicle that best matches it’s chosen time.
It’s not about speed, it’s about consistency.
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I’m not sure what the results were for the Saabs other than they all made it through the event unscathed and completed the day with some very happy drivers inside. Just the way it ought to be at events like this.
There is more info about the rally itself at: http://www.trajectoire.be/ingAB/UK/AccueilUK.php
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Congratulations to Saab Belgium and Beherman European for their sponsorship and participation in this event.
It’s great to see Saab out there doing stuff like this, reinforcing the heritage of a proud company. I’d love to see more of it (and would be more than happy to pilot a Saab 99 or 900 around Targa Tasmania next year seeing it’s become a more gentlemanly event).

And my thanks to Sofie for the images!

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by Swade

New Saab 900 convertible design study

April 27, 2009 in Archive

The following is a snippet from an Italian design magazine – Auto and Design. They’ve made an attempt to redesign a Saab 900 convertible for modern times.
That link will lead you to a flash preview of the edition. You most likely have to purchase the magazine to get the full story.
What follows below is a reproduction of the screenshots from that flash preview. Click to enlarge.
AutoDesign900-1.JPG
The first time I saw that image, above, I didn’t like it too much. When you claim to be re-designing a Saab 900 convertible, you’re tackling an icon, and this seemed to me like it had too much NG900 in it.
That was my first glance.
As I looked at it more and more, I liked it more and more. The front definitely reminds me of the NG900 and OG9-3. They’re not my favourite Saab convertibles, but that doesn’t mean to say they’re bad in any way,
The roof is very reminiscent of the classic 900, especially at the back. See below.
AutoDesign900-5.JPG
I like the rear, too, which has some angles similar to the latest of the Saab convertibles. There’s enough to remind you, at least.
AutoDesign900-6.JPG
I’m definitely not a fan of the grille treatment here, and I think the angles on the lights etc could be a little softer, but it’s got enough Saab in it to be a very good starting point.
AutoDesign900-7.JPG
I was cold on this at first, but the more I see of it the more I think it has potential. The meeting point between the roof and the car shows that you can make a modern design blend with a classical element.
Interesting stuff indeed. Thanks to Danny for the link.

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by Swade

Springtime in Sweden 2009

April 26, 2009 in Archive

The 6th annual gathering of Saabs in Amherst, New Hampshire, to honor the memory of the Crisman brothers, Kyle and Tim, was held this past weekend.
I’m not sure how many cars turned up for this year’s event, but it looks like a very good field, from Sonnets to 900s, to 2008 model Turbo X’s.
It seems Brian W was kind enough to devote some time putting together what is a very tidy website for the cause, and he’s posted four pages of Saabs on display, as well as a catalog of winners from the day’s judging.
Click here for the photo gallery front page. Maybe your car is in there!
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The event is in memory of Kyle (SPGUY) and Tim Crisman.
On the afternoon of November 3, 2002, Kyle and Tim were on their way home from a visit with their Grandmother, when they lost their lives in an automobile accident.
The Crisman family have set up a scholarship fund in their memory and proceeds from the Springtime in Sweden event, as well as any other donations and fundraising activities, go towards the scholarship fund.
Donations can be made at the Crisman Memorial website.
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If you or you Saab club have an event coming up, please post it in comments here. I’ll add it to the Saab Events page, which will be online shortly.

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by Swade

In case you’re wondering….

April 25, 2009 in Troll Stuff

….why things are a little quiet around here, we have some family visiting from the mainland, and we’ve been out doing fun things like feeding camels!! That’s my cousin’s husband, Graham, making way for a hungry dromedary at Zoodoo wildlife park.
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I hope you’re having a good weekend. Will be back to Saaby stuff shortly….

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Saab gatherings in the northern warm

April 24, 2009 in Archive

As we sit here in the southern hemisphere and endure our first full-on wet weekend (great time for a family visit, huh?), you lucky folks in the northern hemisphere are starting to experience longer, warmer days.
That means Saab Clubs and others are planning on getting together to enjoy their cars in whatever twisty mountain roads might be in their area, or maybe a nice display in a park somewhere.
I thought it’d be a good idea to put together a page on Saabs United to list all the gatherings that are going to be happening over the next six months. A kind of global Saab enthusiasts calendar, if you will.
You might think your club or event is too small, but I can almost guarantee there’s a good chance that someone’s reading this who’s not too far away from you and probably hasn’t heard of your group, or the event.
I’ve listed a few below to kick things off, but please add your event in comments in the following format:

  • Name of event
  • Date of event
  • Location of event
  • Club/Org hosting event
  • Contact email or website

I’ll add you event to the events page that I’ll build here, and there will be a link to that page in the sidebar.
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Swedish Day UK
10 May 2009
Haynes International Motor Museum, Sparkford
Robin M – South West Saab Club
http://www.swedishday.co.uk/

2009 Cabrio Challenge
June 27 2009
Ends at Kolmården, Sweden
http://www.cabriochallenge.se/

International Saab Club Meeting 2009 (IntSaab)
7-9 August 2009
Doesburg, The Netherlands
Saab Club Nederland
http://www.intsaab2009.com/

Saab Owners Convention 2009
August 13-16, 2009
Copper Mountain Resort, Frisco, Colorado, USA
Saab Club North America and Rocky Mountain Saab Club
http://www.rockymtnsaabclub.com/SOC09/

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by Swade

New Saab T-shirts online

April 24, 2009 in Archive

I just thought I’d give you a quick heads-up to some new shorts that we’ve put in the US Saab design shop.
Inspired by the recent “Saab Disagrees” post I put up here, we’ve decided to turn the original campaign into a retro Saab T-shirt for those who might be interested.
By using the DIY Saab Design Shop, you can choose your own garment and color scheme. Here’s a look at it on a standard black T-shirt, with the lettering in silver (reminiscent of the ad itself).
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As mentioned, this shirt is only available in the US version of our Saab Design Shops. The standard shop has several pre-formatted designs, or you can use the Do-It-Yourself shop and customise it to your hearts desire.
Disagrees5.jpg

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I will never complain about the price of Saab maintenance again

April 24, 2009 in Archive

I just had what I believe alcoholics refer to as a moment of clarity.
As you may know (and may be sick of hearing about), I’ve been on the lookout for a Porsche 944. It’s one of the cars that I’ve always wanted to own and let’s face it, who wouldn’t want to have a Porsche in the driveway for a little while?
I found what looked to be a pretty good car, and may well be. But in talking to the owner, he mentioned that the car has been running on the same clutch for over 120,000km. He said it feels 100% OK, but 120K is 120K. In addition, the torque tube is a little noisy at idle. Other than that, the car is 100%, with only a few little cosmetic issues to worry about.
As part of my due diligence, my next call was to a specialist Porsche parts supplier, where I learned that a clutch kit for a 944 will set you back over A$1,200!! Same again for the torque tube! Then there’s the labour for the work to be carried out, which won’t be cheap given that the mechanic will likely have “Porsche” written on the front door.
To put that clutch cost into perspective, the clutch on the similarly aged Saab 900 Aero that I sold a few months ago was replaced (with the genuine Sachs item) for a total cost of $800. That’s parts and labour. The 944 will cost a full 50% more just for the part!
This revelation has me totally re-thinking the Porsche route. Yes, I’d love the experience, but what price do you put on it?
It’s also got me appreciating the Saab experience all over again. Yes, Saabs can be pricier than some other vehicle makes, but for standard maintenance they’re pretty much on a par. And if you divide that maintenance cost into the value for money that you get from the vehicle, then they’re an absolute thriller.
Consider my 900 Aero. More power than the Porsche. Pretty good handling, though probably not as good. More practical. More bells and whistles. More comfortable from an everyday point of view though the Porsche is more comfortable in a sports car sort of way.
I sold the 900 for just a shade over $3,000 and the cheapest 944 in the country, which doesn’t even have power steering, is selling for $8,000. It does look great and seeing it’s here in Tasmania, I’ve actally driven it and it’s definitely fun.
But is it worth the maintenance risk?
When raising the issue of a Mazda MX-5 again in my snippets post from earlier today, Jono rightly mentioned comments to the effect that a Porsche is a Porsche and a Mazda is just a Mazda. But for the price of the cheapest 944 in Australia I can get a pretty well kitted out MX5 that’s got great handling, a hardtop and a soft-top, and from personal experience is a lot of fun to drive.
Yes, a Porsche would be highly desireable. But at what price?
And don’t complain about the cost of routine Saab maintenance because on the whole, they’re pretty well built and quite affordable in the markets I peruse: You get a hell of a lot of car for your money.
They ain’t priced like a Toyota becuase they’re a lot more enjoyable to own and drive.

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Friday Snippets – 11th hour edition

April 24, 2009 in Archive

GM have a month-and-a-bit to go, but Chrysler’s month is almost up and they’re preparing for bankruptcy.

According to a story from The New York Times, the Treasury Department and Chrysler are readying Chapter 11 bankruptcy documents for filing as early as next week.
The report goes on to say that the filing carries with it an “agreement in principle” with the United Auto Workers that would protect members’ benefits packages, including pension and retiree health care obligations.

I know it’s not Saab related, but this Chrysler/GM fiasco is like a car crash. It’s ugly, but you can’t help but look.
Fiat’s not out of the picture, either. They’ll be waiting in the wings to pick up the pieces but without the heavy baggage labelled “UAW”

Whither Fiat? Apparently, the Italian automaker is still very much in the picture, although under this arrangement, it would not reach its stake-holding deal until after Chrysler is already in bankruptcy court.

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And on the GM side of the bankruptcy merry-go-round, they’re apparently going to kill another brand – next Monday.
It looks like they’re no longer excited about their excitement brand – Pontiac.

According to a source at General Motors, the company will announce next Monday its new “faster, deeper” reorganization plan, which will likely include a death sentence for the Pontiac brand.
Inside Line called Tom Wilkinson, news relations PR man for General Motors, who said: “There’s nothing I can share with you at this time. Keep your eyes on our media site. Officially, nothing has changed with Pontiac’s niche-brand status, until you hear differently.”

It’s like the who company is in an uncontrollable spin and bits are flying off due to the centrifugal forces.
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Because I keep an eye on these things, it’s noted that the Saab 9-3 has been overtaken by it’s countryman – the Volvo C30 – in the top 3 of the Gaywheels most researched cars survey.
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This is one of the most under-appreciated Saab shapes, I think: the first generation Saab 9000.
This one’s a black Carlsson edition, photographed by our unofficial Saab ambassador to the UK, Robin M.
BlackSaab9000Carlsson.jpg
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The Porsche search has begun and wow – it’s a worry.
I’ve looked into one in Sydney and whilst it looked good and had the engine I’d really like, there are two issues that might need attention.
A car having two issues is not normally something that would put me off. But the parts alone – forget labour for a moment – cost over $2,500!!!!
I may have to look further into the local 1983 model that’s for sale here in Tassie. I drove it back in November last year and whilst I swore I’d not get a pre-1986 model at that time, my budget’s just not going to make it.
Plus, it’s local, it drives great, looks great in silver with the cookie cutter wheels and the price is much more reasonable.
The only other options are an MX-5 or do nothing.

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Thursday Night Quick Snippets

April 24, 2009 in Archive

It’s been busy here at SU-central tonight. We have some family coming from the mainland over the weekend so we’ve been baby-proofing the house, etc.
I thought I’d better jump on the computer, though, and post a quick update on some events from the last 24 hours that I haven’t covered yet.
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I’ve received a number of emails about the fact that Saab aren’t the only company dropping their V6 engine in 2010.
Audi are also dropping their 3.2litre V6 offering from the A3, A4 and TT ranges of vehicles in the US market.
I still wonder about the loss of prestige from this.
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Mark down May 2009 as the last continuous month of ‘normal’ operations for General Motors.
In what was undoubtedly the biggest story of the day, GM’s CFO Ray Young indicated that the company will default on a bondholder payment due on June 1. GM are trying to negotiate a debt-for-equity deal with these bondholders, but it looks unlikely.
This default will more or less automatically trigger a bankruptcy procedure, which I’m sure both GM and the US government are working on as we speak.
What I’d like some clarity on (still) is exactly how this will effect Saab and their ongoing effort in reconstruction.
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Fiat CEO Sergio Marchionne said a few months ago that maybe only 6 automotive companies would remain when all is said and done at the end of this financial crisis.
He’s trying everything to make sure Fiat are one of them.
First there was the Chrysler deal, which looks like it’s going nowhere (though it’s still under negotiation). Now Fiat are being spoken of in terms of hooking up with Opel.
Is there anyone Fiat aren’t in bed with at this point? It’s like they’re the Paris Hilton of the automotive world.
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Wolfgang has written in to me about an article in an Austrian news service stating that Magna are thinking about Opel as well.
Magna have fingers in just about everyone’s automotive pie, so it’s not too big a surprise that they’d be interested in consolidating their business in Europe.

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Saab should go Open Source

April 23, 2009 in Archive

This is another one of those posts where I tend to push my own barrow a little, but not without good reason.
As you may know, I’m a passionate follower of Australian Rules football. I grew up in the city where it was invented and it’s like religion there. It’s all encompassing.
In case you hadn’t figured it out yet, I’m also passionate about cars, driving, and Saabs in particular. The experience that got me interested in Saabs was what I’ve referred to here previously as my Damascus Road drive; but that’s not what really hooked me in.
It was when I looked further into buying one that I started researching the cars and the company itself, and it was as I learned more about their historic cars, achievements and philosophy that I really got hooked.
I saw an article today by an Australian Rules football coach called named Mark Williams. He coaches the Port Power, based in Port Adelaide, South Australia. The article was titled Open Source Football and as I read it, I couldn’t help but nod my head and think that the theory he’s promoting is one that could help Saab reach people who have a curiosity about cars.
Here’s a snippet. It’s about Australian Rules football, but apply the experience he describes to your favourite sport and it should translate reasonably well.

The average supporter’s main understanding of the game is typically restricted because of the view they get on the TV screen. We thought it would be a great idea for our supporters to gain a bit more insight into what’s happening in the modern game.
On the (supporter’s insider night – a promotion for supporters of his football club), each of the assistant coaches got up and spoke for 15 minutes about their respective area of expertise, whether it was the forward line, back line, midfield, fitness or player development.
We showed our members snippets of game footage and showed them exactly what players were faced with when they had the ball in different areas of the ground.
The whole night was based on the premise that we wanted to make it easier for people to try and understand why players might do things like hold on to the ball, rather than playing on all the time, or why they don’t kick long inside 50 (i.e. into the area closest to goal).
We opened ourselves up to any questions from the floor, armed with knowledge of some of the criticisms the general public have of our team and other teams in the league.
Our supporters want nothing more than for us to win and I think we left them with the realisation that that is all we’re here to do.

Knowledge breeds interest. The people who would have attended the night hosted by the football club would all have a keen interest in football aready. That interest has just been seasoned with some inside knowledge and I can guarantee you that all those who attended would be much more attuned to and passionate about their club.
If you’re a Manchester United fan, this night would similar to sitting down with Sir Alex Ferguson and having him explain Man U’s tactics – why they do things the way they do. How would you feel after that?
What I’m advocating here is that Saab could make use of a similar sort of program. I’m not sure that Ford, Toyota, Hyundai, VW or Buick could benefit from it or that anyone would be interested. Maybe Ford could with Mustang and maybe VW could with the GTI. Maybe. But those companies and others like them are generally too big and have an audience that buys transportation appliances.
Small companies like Saab have a much greater proportion of people who consider themselves as discretionary vehicle purchasers. They check out the cars they’re buying and they buy them for a reason. They tend to grow to love them. Sometimes they’ll end up hating them, but it’s rare that they’ll be totally ambivalent.
Companies that have customers like those ought to reach out and make a real connection with those customers. Not a magazine-every-quarter connection. A real connection, where those customers who care about the company get a real insight into the company.
Open the doors.
It doesn’t mean you have to give away your biggest trade secrets. It just means you give people a greater insight and appreciation for the way you do the things you do.
If anyone should know about the power of customer loyalty, it’s Saab. GM advocates always suggest that GM’s deep pockets in the 1990s and early 2000s are the only reason Saab is still around. I’d like to suggest that GM’s market for selling Saabs consisted of – to a very large degree – repeat customers who’d owned Saabs back when they were more communicative and engaging (and back when they had something really interesting to say, too).
Information doesn’t only bring knowledge. When it’s information about something that a person can engage with, then it also brings relationship. And if you don’t believe that people can have relationships with their cars, you’re reading the wrong website.
Saab could do with plenty more of those relationships if you ask me.