It's Renco vs Fiat for ownership of Saab - maybe

How about a rebadged and "Saabified" Fiat Bravo as a new smaller Saab 9-2 hot hatch MY2011? :)

Fiat is better, i believe and hope!!!

My heart says Koenigsegg...and what a marketing opportunity that could be...for Saab.

My head says Renco, and what a marketing opportunity that could be...but for Renco.

Maybe that's Ira's plan. Perhaps he wants to get into the BioPower, greenish thing as part of cleaning up his and his company's image. Could even be a good move.

I just wish we could know...and that we could see the 9-5 without it's camo!

The K-segg option is "romantic" but can they handle a mass producer?
Do they have the financial muscle? Where does their money come from?

I do not particularly like the FIAT option but they have top tech engines, petrol and diesel made by FiatPowerTrain, they could share platforms, they could put together dealer networks with Alfa and Lancia, etc......

So there are synergies......

didnt RHJ holdings pull out of the Opel bidding?

Let's say that Saab and Gm management preferred renco for some time; has something better come along?

Ripplewood is no longer bidding on Opel - who's to say they arent now focused entirely on saab?

Fiat or Magna could be okay if they don't get Opel, but frankly Saab shouldn't go to someone just because they happen to miss out on their first option. It happened with General Motors twenty years ago and it's approach to Saab has always been decidely half hearted ever since. Anyone else who is only half hearted about buying Saab, or just sees Saab as a means to an end, please go and buy Daewoo or something. Unfortunately at the moment, who is there that doesn't fit that mold?

As happily as the 9000 development went for Saab engineers, the key point is that the same development was used for an Alpha and a Lancia. The 9000 was also the most unreliable Saab ever (a typical Italian attribute).

I am confident that Fiat will favor Alpha, Lancia, and Maserati (I know Maser is under a different Fiat umbrella) over Saab. Throw in the Chrysler brand and it is not at all clear where Saab fits in.

Chrysler gives Fiat US dealers, a solid large car platform and the Phoenix V-6. Saab offers another large car platform and access to GM engines that are not as good as the Phoenix. I don't see the point in maintaining Saab alive and hope that someone else carries the day.

Even though Fiat came in through the back door it would be idiotic to leave them out if they have a good concept, maybe even better than the other three.

German media is talking about Magna all the time when it comes to Opel so I think that Fiat will miss it. And that might be a chance for Saab.

BAIC, who came with a two-sheet-concept, were ignored by GM at Opel, maybe because they were knocked out at Saab before.

And to bring it even further maybe RHJ has already knocked at that back door for they want to spend their money as they missed Opel.

Or maybe next week we se a new owner noone has thought of. Anyway it goes, Saab management must see something in this new owner and I'm quite confident they make the right choice...

What I don't understand is that Ira Rennert is old as dirt. He is in his mid-to-late 70's. Why does he want to invest his money in such a huge undertaking when he can go at any moment?

I also keep hearing that K-segg does not know how to manage mass produced cars. While I cannot disagree I have to wonder what does Renco or RJH know about it either?

So maybe this question has already been answered but how is Fiat going to manage Chrysler, Opel and Saab along with the rest of their activities while their profits plunging and their revenue down?

Swedish media is now reporting Saab has officially decided to start re-hiring people due to the increase in orders already reported.

Which tells us they are very confident they have a solid new parent. Otherwise they would not commit to adding more employees.

Look for yourselves on Google.

Google search Renco, click news - The Peru Government is threatening to close Doe Run Peru as Rennert has NOT done what he promised there re serial toxic pollution. Rather, he continues to poison fellow human beings. Same reports say Doe Run is at 30% capacity and banks have cut off funding. Ira hasn't made good on $156 million financial shortfall. This guy is like Donald Trump, he has overstated his wealth, and now is in trouble.

A Google search of Ira Rennert shows he was a good friend of Madoff and lost approx $200,000 in cash. Not unrealized equity value, but cash.

Bad in general. Very Bad for Saab.

From my experience in this field, every major industrial corporation or entity has had some environmental violation or the other. I like the Hummer H3, almost bought one, very elegant lines. I,ve seen some police forces running them. I'll go with Renco.

What do you supposed they mean by "eletrification the turbo" in the third ad?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/saabcarsofficial/3570535156/sizes/l/in/photostream/

Hybrids with a twist(?) :)

Sweden and Italy have one thing in common.... great meatballs

"GT.se now say that Ripplewood, who were until recently a bidder for Opel via their spinoff company, RHJ, are one of "the three" and the likely winner. Incorrect. Nudie runs."

Well Swade, I have a hunch you may have to do a nudie run with "Ripplewood" written across your chest... And if I am wrong, I will do my own run outside my house. Under my clothes I shall be completely nude! (probably better that way for the sake of the neighbours...)

Can you say "Nipplewood" if Swade looses? ;)

None,
You shouldn't be so judgemental of Ira personally. He's an old man. I'm sure he has a lot of people under him, who's responsibility it was to comply with environmental regulations. Those people may now be fired.

What if the Renco in Swade's final 3 (or 4 or 5) is India's Rencotech? Renewable Energy Intervention Services, BUT just allied itself with India's Larsen & Toubro Capital, the investment banking subsidiary of a Seven BILUSD engineering company originally founded by two Danes in Mumbai????? L&T is a very impressive company - everything from earth movers to road construction, and interesting they kept the Danish name even though management is now all Indian.

Names are very tricky - this is what I meant earlier by Renco possibly being a front for another investor. I also still maintain that if the Renco finalist for SaabIS U.S. Renco Group, then it is most likely through their wholly owned subsidiary AM General (Humvees), which is actually 70% owned by Perelman, NOT Ira Rennert.

Give it a break None, until we know for sure...

And, China just announcing even stricter fuel standards, favoring smaller vehicles, meaning Chinese auto manufacturers must be keenly interested in some turbo and/or bio-fuel technologies.

Neil, I don't think vagabond is being slanderous. It's been stated at SU before: For better or worse, Saab automobiles began from an aircraft company that designed military aircraft to kill and inflict casualties.

To me, the statement "who is 100% clean" is rhetorical and makes sense. There aren't many (if any) companies in the world today that are as clean as the wind driven snow when it comes to the environment, and other issues. If Saab goes to Renco, I won't be ecstatic, but I will be hopeful that Saab's ethos will serve as a positive influence on them to clean up their act...and a positive influence that will help Saab develop some truly class leading automobiles.

In a way, I think Renco may be the best choice from a development standpoint for Saab, because they have no pre-conceived ideas about passenger car production and may let Saab be Saab. Let's hope so anyway.

Neil, I don't think vagabond is being slanderous. It's been stated at SU before: For better or worse, Saab automobiles began from an aircraft company that designed military aircraft to kill and inflict casualties.

To me, the statement "who is 100% clean" is rhetorical and makes sense. There aren't many (if any) companies in the world today that are as clean as the wind driven snow when it comes to the environment, and other issues. If Saab goes to Renco, I won't be ecstatic, but I will be hopeful that Saab's ethos will serve as a positive influence on them to clean up their act...and a positive influence that will help Saab develop some truly class leading automobiles.

In a way, I think Renco may be the best choice from a development standpoint for Saab, because they have no pre-conceived ideas about passenger car production and may let Saab be Saab. Let's hope so anyway.

Just this statement alone that Swade posted above ("according to Saab all three bidders have seen Saab's business plan, have committed to it and have proven they've got the funding to carry out what they've committed to.") would seem to exclude Fiat. They really don't have any money and expect to operate Saab on government funding. My three in the running would have to be Koenigsegg(with the Norwegians backing them of course),Renco & BAIC because they are the most well funded of the group.

The perfect mix between Italy and Sweden:
http://superstruny.aspweb.cz/images/fyzika/superstring/string_theory.gif
(OK, it's a joke about string theory but anyway...)

Bring on the Saalfa Romeab!

It doesnt seem to hurt Toyota or the sale of the "POS" Prius that the nickel mines in the world totally destroy the environment near these mines. Yet these environmental nut bags think they are doing so much to help the environment by buying these POS's.

(The batteries in the Prius require nickel and lots of it)

since ´none´ have nothing new to say...no, i will not get mean, so i´ll stop writing...
chears

"who are in favour of a takeover by Opel."

BTW: Bit of a slip there Swade! Surprised nobody else seemed to notice it.

UAW's Gettelfinger just said on news that they got GM to agree to a small car platform in the U.S. (smaller than Ford Focus or Chevy Cobalt) instead of the threat of more imports from GM plants in Korea and China.

I'm with ttaero...except when I googled Renco, the first hit was the Renco in India; and makes some sense for AM General (where else would Renco put Saab?) to add Saab to the Humvee plant with all those military contracts - DoD is committed to fuel efficiency. :)

Just really don't want SWade to do a nudie run though glad I use dial-up and cannot stream the video. Maybe SWade could get Hugh Jackman as his surrogate?

Whatever happens, I can now look forward to Hugh Jackman and Daniel Craig on stage together this fall - talk about a stimulus package for Broadway.

Renco does not seems so bad to me. I did a google news search and from what I could tell, the plant in Peru was already the most polluted site on earth went it was bought by Renco in 1997. At the time, they said it would take ten years to clean up. They have spent hundreds of millions of dollars already and have asked for an extension because the drop in commodity prices has made financing further clean up difficult.
Lead smelting is a dirty business and they are allowed certain amounts of pollution. Sometimes they have exceded thier allowance and been fined by the government (US site), in other years they didn't even come close to meeting thier allowance.

As someone else has said, Renco might be the best option because they can allow Saab to do what Saab does with little interference. For all we know, someone in power at Renco might be a huge Saab fan who wants to see Saab reach its potential. Lets hope.

Reuters on Koenigsegg and Renco quoting other newspapers who got their info from where?

None; Doesn't like Renco. Will not buy Car, toaster, or otherwise from Renco owned Saab....

...Check

I wouldn't buy LEAD from Rennert. His deeds will catch up with him.

ttaero - yes, that is what Gettelfinger said on PBS NewsHour - smaller than a Focus or Cobalt. The UAW had to cave to GM under the threat of GM imports from China and Korea, so they got this promise for a smaller platform.

I see smaller cars (a mini-Mini?) once in a while, NEVER on an Interstate highway. Rarely see Focus (or Minis) on the Interstates - or even on the Parkways that ban tractor trailers. Seeing more Prius (is the plural of Prius 'Prii'?) even on interstates, but they always look scared, surrounded by all those SUVs and the 40 ton rigs.

In the U.S., I suppose you could have a 2nd very small car for local driving, but I still believe the love affair with SUVs has been largely due to the illusion of feeling safe on the Interstates. I admit I sometimes feel threatened by those big rigs in my 9-3.

not that I don't out-maneuver ALL OF THEM when they get too aggressive. with a suitable finger motion.

the other problem with selling really small cars in U.S. is that weight problem that afflicts so many...and all the stuff we seem to need to carry around in our personal vehicles.

@elbobo - go for it. what will None do when he realizes the magnesium in something he owns was mined by Renco? :) chuckle chuckle

Personally, I am also appalled by Rennert's huge house. But, if Renco buys Saab for the longterm as they do with their other companies, and Saab is reborn, (please, with a hatch), I'm ok with that. Must be a TRUE Saab enthusiast at Renco for them to be this serious in the middle of a global auto meltdown.

I don't like Renco and I don't like the idea of Renco buying Saab, but I'll find a way to live with it if I have to.

I'm going to play devil's advocate here, though, and ask you a question, none.

You contended that Koenigsegg wouldn't provide a marketing bounce for Saab or any marketing benefit over the longer term, largely because a lot of people wouldn't know who Koenigsegg is (which I tend to think is largely irrelevant anyway. Just a picture of the K-Segg at a dealership and people will get the idea).

How negative will the impact of (God forbid) Renco buying be when the recognition of the Renco name will even less than the recognition of the K-Segg name?

Heck, a lot of people don't even know that Saab is owned by GM, which is one of the most recognised automotive names there is.

People such as yourself know Renco because you live in the higher end of the business world (you've mentioned your M&A background in previous comments) but to the average buyer, Saab will just be Saab and the signature on the paycheck will be irrelevant.

You've stated that Renco buying Saab will stop a lot of others from buying Saab. Unless a concerted effort is put into smearing Saab, how is that going to be so?

Like I said, I don't want this to happen either, but there's a chance it will.

Thanks swade fore the best blogg i´ve seen ever.

Tkank you all for the good times.

And i say thanks to none fore telling me what is available fore everyone, and for telling me again and again.

signing of

I don't think anyone here is particularly pro Renco so I think you are repeating yourself many times to people, who to some extent agree with you already. Thats my problem. I am not exactly a fan either but seeing one person yelling the same thing over and over gets tedious. Just MHO

Chris

Sorry mate, but I'd have to disagree.

First, after listening to others here, I agreed that there would be a marketing bump with K-Segg and agreed the motorjocks and some in the automotive press would love it. I did express doubt on scale and scope of the task for a small company.

You may have paid some tacit kudos to K-Segg's cars but overall, you were much more dismissive of the bump than that.

You may be correct that many won't know Rennert but he is the antithesis of Saab values.

That may be correct in black and white terms, but playing devil's advocate again, there's a lot Rennert could say in his favour. The fact that the mine was completely unregulated before he bought from the government could be one. The fact that he's spent X-hundred million on cleanup could be another. The fact that he spent X-millions in Hurculaneum and it's now considered safe and part of the community could be another. The fact that the prices of lead and zinc have both fallen by around 50% in the last 12 months, hampering Doe Run's ability to pay for its own cleanup is yet another.

As I've said several times, Renco isn't my preferred option, but for every claim there's a counterclaim.

And every Saab competitor can and will use the association with Rennert to smear Saab - too easy not to.

This doesn't tend to happen in the automotive industry. When was the last time you saw an anti-Volkswagen advertising campaign poster with Hitler on it?

Saab competitors will be busy promoting their own products.

There will be difficult times in the press, especially in Sweden. On that I agree, though the Swedish press have been remarkably uncritical so far when mentioning Renco.

Wow! It sounds like None may need a Nudie Run around Doe Run to cool off a bit...

@ Dog Nudie Run at next years Saab Days at Doe Run - I'm in!

Me too! I'll bring the haz-mat suits & sunscreen! Yee Ha!

None - thanks for being a good sport! :)

Bild.de just reported that Fiat will not attend the Opel-bidder-GM-German Government meeting today in Berlin.

The reason: because of a "dire straits" situation, Fiat can't enter into extraordinary risks.

This leaves space for interpretations...maybe they will not bid also for Saab anymore....

Take a look at this: http://blogs.bnet.com/harvard/?p=2291&tag=nl.e713 ;-)

I am not planning to buy another Saab, but I would be certain not to do so if owner is a shady mega-structure in the US... After all I already did it once.