For those who still don't believe in the Saab 9-4x

I would find it very difficult to argue with that statement...and that's one of many reasons why I hope to have one sitting in my driveway in about 12 months. I can't wait to get behind the wheel of one and hope more than anything that it far exceeds any and all expectations that I may have. Drive safely and KEEP ON SAABING!!!

Can you post a link? I can't find it on motortrend.com

thanx

e-mail me your e-mail address and I'll send you a scanned pdf. It was in their physical magazine.

ajm@justsaab.com

You are very welcome. Thanks for scanning the article!

It's nice to see some of the more main-stream car magazines picking up the Saab story. I saw plenty about Saab closing back in December but it's taking a while for the mainstream media to get word out that that's no longer the case!

Or: "Git 'er dun !" south of the 49th parallel .... ;-)

I strongly oppose anyone who thinks Saab "sold out" by including a CUV/SUV in its lineup. For Saab to survive, it must be on an equal playing field with all its intended competitors in each and every market segment. "Cast the net far and wide" or "portfolio diversification" as it were. But do it and do it well, make whole-hearted efforts and strike the logical and emotional appeals with existing and new customers.

Then they will come ..............

IIRC, SRX's biggest downfall that's been hindering its comparo ranking is its curb weight at around 4,200 lbs-4,500 lbs.

I doubt the 9-4X will be much lighter, if at all. But maybe the engineers at Trollhattan can breathe extra "life" into it that the Detroit boys can't.

"However, they are both a drop in the bucket compared to volume of crossovers (and truck-on-frame units) sold by Ford and GM. It's a tough segment and the domestic automakers have very good products at far lower price points. There will have to be something very compelling about the 9-4X to win over many GM and Ford truck/suv owners (myself included)."

I would politely argue that, potential shoppers of the 9-4X (and Audi Q5, Acura RDX, BMW X3, M-B GLK, Volvo XC60, Infiniti E35, Caddy SRX, etc) DON'T cross-shop other Ford and GM products.

Hey, don't poo poo Mexico. My mom's VW was built in Mexico and the build quality is excellent. Some of the materials are a little cheesy, but it's a great car for being built in... Mexico. Dun, dun dunnnn.

The answer is: so, it's a Saab!

Anyone who bought a 9-7X is going to buy a 9-4X.

For me, I might prefer the 9-3X or the 9-5X.

Ken- Let me play devil's advocate and suggest that Saab should be going after the 100 million Ford and GM owners rather than trying to pry loose a few BMW and Audi owners. Needs to be compelling but at the same time with some value proposition.

Yeah, Saab could do that. But that's the job currently already being done by the likes of Subaru, KIA, Hyundai, VW ..... no ?

Under GM's watch, Saab could easily have been tasked that role, to chase after the umpteen GM and Ford mainstream products buyers. But that's the conundrum and paradox, ain't it ? Stay niched and specialized yet still chasing an ever-growing potential market ?

Are you suggesting a Saab pickup truck?

Yes, but nobody bought the 9-7X, perhaps because the Tahoe was a much better value? I honestly hope the 9-4X is a success, but had GM not developed it, I could see VM investing in other areas such as the 9-1 and 9-3.

I have heard it argued the other way. The 9-7X was the preferred vehicle because it was a Saab and handled better.

I think I saw a Saab pickup in one of the convoys.

What I am suggesting to everyone here, is that you need to give me a good reason to trade in my domestic suv. I have had a Ford, a Landcruiser and a Saab in the garage for the last 25 years.

The 900 will be replaced with a 9-3SC or 9-5 shortly. What is going to put the 9-4X on my short list for the other two? Simply saying that I'm not a BMW or Audi owner misses 99% of potential US prospects.

Where is Eggs when you need him...

"What is going to put the 9-4X on my short list for the other two?"

The answer is a test drive and maybe mpg.

That is likely the case (Tahoe better value than 9-7X) if value is all that customers are after. And what is value ? Amount of HP for the price ? Creature comforts ?

And it didn't help that the 9-7X was (often) parked in a Saab showroom located a stone's throw from other GM showrooms featuring other GM SUVs.

No surprise to see Greg Abbott heading this list of comments. PT where are you ??? There is a commercial reality and a purist reality. Let’s be honest and clear here folks, but the Germans have excelled on the first one well ahead of any other European brand. We have to hand it to them as Mercs started delivering V8s in SLs back in the 70s to the Americans and look at them now. The A brand in particular has also mastered this too by delivering key models with V8, big bodies etc etc that masses of Americans buy but yet retain their purists side very well. Saab has to have a wider and reachable presence and supply to these masses of consumers. Not everyone has an appetite for 4 cyl hatch limited to 2 models. If anything positive can be drawn out of all these GFC's, GM collapse, etc etc crisis is that Saab will now have the chance to do the same as these German brands and excel even more and faster. The opportunity and its timing are perfect, now Victor and the new team need to execute and make it happen. Now or never I am afraid !!!

I am thinking that the 9-4x is not so much a competitor to the bigger U.S. SUVs as it is to the MDX/RDX/whatever Lexus has/Volvo/VW Tiguan, as well as a vehicle that may appeal to some of the customers who were looking at 9-3 (and maybe 9-5, soon) Combis. Sure, it's not a Saab purist's first choice, but we need those other customers too. And maybe if a Saab purist moves out to the country that extra ground clearance of a 9-4x is pretty appealing. A 9-4x will be a great competitor versus Subaru Outbacks & Foresters.

I think a big by-product of the American SUV explosion is that a *lot* of American drivers just assume that AWD is a necessity in the snow. And if they're going to get AWD, they figure they might as well get a SUV.

Sure, they're not lining up for Tahoes as soon as they roll off the line anymore, but a nice crossover has a good-sized target audience.

Personally, I like 4 cylinders, FWD, and snow tires. But there's a market here in the States for the 9-4x, and I think it will serve Saab well along with the 9-5 and 9-3, till Victor, Jan-Åke and the team get their new Saabs rolling.

Paul- I absolutely agree with your statement below.

"Personally, I like 4 cylinders, FWD, and snow tires. But there's a market here in the States for the 9-4x, and I think it will serve Saab well along with the 9-5 and 9-3, till Victor, Jan-Åke and the team get their new Saabs rolling..."

When the 9-4X concept came out, it was with a 4-cyl biopower drivetrain developed for the European market. That really caught my interest and made me hope that we might get the same configuration over here. It doesn't look like that will happen, but I think the 9-4X will still find buyers in North America.

I also really hope that Spyker will market to first time buyers seeking an entry-level luxury vehicle. This would capture the very customers you have identified; VW, Acura, Nissan, Lexus, in addition to those GM and Ford crossover owners.

Exactly. If Saab only comes out with a V6, the 9-4 won't sell well at all.

Americans have finally woken up and realized MPG and efficiency are the key.

If Saab doesn't offer a 4 cyl. or diesel variant that gets 30 MPG, I fear some tough times ahead for the 9-4. Am I the only one?

Jeff- The Q5 is a great vehicle, reasonably priced, built on the B8 platform, same as the A4. I think it's only being offered with the 3.2 normally aspirated engine right now (US spec), but watch sales go up further when they offer the 2.0 direct inject. Spec the sport package and you'll get your wheels..

Saab is playing catchup in this segment, but I think we're in a much better position than when we had the 9-7.

I promise you, drivers will overlook the 4-cyl option and the no diesel option. Unless diesels are priced lower (yes lower) than their gas alternatives, a majority of buyers will still go for gas. Despite all the advancements, most people here hate the smell, availability, and stigma attached to diesel. Before you try to argue with me, ask a sampling of your friends if they are interested in buying a diesel car in the near future. While I'm all for advancing diesel tech and their sales, let Audi and BMW use their marketing budgets to promote it, and once sales actually pick up and buyers come to accept them, slip one in the US.

If someone here is buying a 9-4x instead of a 9-3x, they want a few simple things: Higher driving position, increased "off-roadiness" so they can get through bad weather, safety, cargo space, and image. They might even know there isn't that much of an edge or none at all on some of those, but they choose it anyway. Think of the mentality of someone in that situation, and then think of what engine they want. Unless Saab can teach Mexicans how to take out 1000 pounds from the Theta platform, 2.8t please.

I fully agree with you, Iari.

But looking at the harsh reality that faces Saab, they must conduct a full-on product assault ASAP to get vehicles out of the showrooms and for the $$$ to trickle back in. For me, it's a hair's width difference whether the 9-4X or the NG9-5 should come out first. Personally, I'd prefer to see the 9-4X launch THIS Spring as part of the new Saab-Spyker enterprise. Followed in the Fall by the NG9-5 sedan *and* sportcombi simultaneously. That'll likely generate, and maintain, enough showroom fizzle and initial revenue for a year and bit.

Then followed by the launch of the supposed new 9-3 Mk.III in early 2011.

This is all my timeline of course ;-)

You and Swade need a landcruiser in the garage. I thought I'd died and gone to heaven on a visit to the Northern Territory...

If only they'd made the Viggen in XWD I'd challenge everyone......EVERYONE!

Landcruisers are ok..... I guess (reluctantly)
:-)

I've driven a Mitsubishi Pajero (Shogun) to Northern Queensland and a Nissan Patrol to the Centre. I'm afraid weight and brick like aerodynamics aren't for me. If Saab had really designed an SUV/CUV instead of something GM decided it should be selling, perhaps my thoughts would be different? But that didn't happen, and the fact that Saab will likely make precious little out of this car makes it an even worse proposition.
I wish the support shown above for the 9-4x, could be directed at a car Saab can make reasonable money selling and not just paying GM development costs for a car Saab won't even be manufacturing.

There are no finger-snap solutions for this. This is a segment they need to be in and the 9-4x is the vehicle they've got. Even with throwing GM a bone for manufacture, they're still going to make money on it and it's a vital segment for them to be present in. It may just help finance that new Saab car you're looking for.

From what I understand, if there is any discounting on the 9-4x, there is a potential for Saab to actually lose money on each car sold because the margins are so small. I'm just saying that selling 9-3s and 9-5s will make far more money for Saab. If the 9-4x becomes the best selling Saab in the US as some people here seem to predict, it makes far more money for GM than it does for Saab in it's biggest single market (approx 20%). I just hope the 9-5x and the NG9-3x obviate the need for the 9-4x in 2 to 3 years, because those cars can make decent money for Saab. The 9-4x by comparison will make little.

You're both right of course, it's a matter of timing and what Spyker has to work with.

My desire in commenting on this thread was to ask that we start thinking of the challenge that VM has before him. Lavishing praise on the 9-4X is easy, selling to enthusiasts is easy, marketing to consumers, not so easy. I think this community has gone far beyond being the typical enthusiast site and could really provide some marketing insight for our respective regions.

MarkAc- you wouldn't want to ride in my FJ40, but brand loyalty on that machine is second only to Saab. And yes, it's a brick.

I have ridden in and driven an FJ40 and more recently Toyota's 'luxurious' troop carrier (didn't drive that thank goodness!). And I know you can't compare a modern SUV/CUV to such cars, but that isn't my main gripe here. Yes of course I'd rather someone drives out of a showroom in a 9-4x than an Audi or something. At least that will earn Saab some money, but if Saab's survival concerns them, I hope they give Saab's other models due consideration.

You're right, the 9-4x is the only vehicle the've got to be present in a segment they want to be in. And we may not forget that it's Saab's first model in this segment and that it's lifespan will be only four or five years I think.

Saab is late enough to this segment (thanks GM) and it has to get there now to be visible and to earn some extra money. People seem to want those small/medium SUVs so give them what they want. It may be a car that can get some people in a Saab for the first time and we all know that quite a number of them will be stuck with Saab then. As I said the XC60 is selling like hotcakes here in Germany though the interior room is not too big, especially in the back. In fact my 9-3x feels roomier.

One thing we may not forget: According to the sales numbers Saab needs for their business plan they only have to steal a real small percentage from the overall SUV sales. And the 9-4x is definetely a good looking vehicle. And with the 9-2x we have seen that Saab engineers are able to get the best out of the things they are given. Maybe the 9-4x is not a pure lovechild but surely a helper to get into the market. And an opportunity for those who want to add a SUV to theit 9-3/9-5/900/9000.

The diesel engine: having the hirsched TTiD in my 9-3x I think this engine may be good for the 9-4x, too. At least torque is quite as high as the 2,8T so it should work. Or maybe they are already after some 2,4 TTiD?
Most XC60 I see have a D5 engine. That's 2,4 litre, 205 hp, 420 Nm. A hirsched TTiD has 1,9 litre, 200 hp, 430Nm. Pretty much the same.

Nope, I totally agree with you. Like I said in the previous 9-4x thread, we don't need another boring SUV/Xover. I'm a bit annoyed that after all the talk about that Saab has to be more Saaby (Saabish?) a lot of people now think it is OK to rebadge a crappy Cadillac cross-over and sell the Saab spirit to the devil.
Yes, a lot of SUV/Xovers are sold, but Saab is not going to make a lot of money on this one. However, if people feel that it is OK to rebadge anything to just make a buck then why not start selling Camry's as Saabs,just claim that the Saab engineers have solved the sticky accelerator problem. How about getting in bed with Ford and make a nice F-150 Aero pickup, now there is a nice big market segment.

I appreciate that Saab is currently in survival mode, but I don't think that just trying to mimic the big lineups of the bigger players is the right way to go. Saab will be a niche player for the next 5 to 10 years and its niche should be carefully considered. So, were back to what makes Saab a Saab. I find it difficult to put my finger on the Saab DNA, but I know that there is not a trace of it in the 9-4x.

Wow I'm actually going to defend the 9-4x. I never thought I'd do that!. It does have substantially more Saab DNA than the 9-2x or 9-7x ever did, and Saab were actively involved in designing it. However it did have to work within very confined parameters.

What I find odd is how everyone says Saabs should all be Swedish and this Mexican one seems to have so much support?

A while back I suggested that when BAIC becomes proficient at building it's old 9-5 and 9-3 clones, it could be used a a cheap manufacturer for a 9-1. At least for Asian markets, and I also suggested that the more expensive versions should still be made in Sweden. I got resoundingly poo pooed. It seems people are much more likely to accept a Mexican 9-4x than a Chinese base model 9-1!

Hah, the 9-4x wouldn't survive a Swedish winter. It would be lying upside down at the side of the road in no time.

I don't believe in Mexican built cars either, reminds me of the last 'original' VW Beetles.
Same probably true for Chinese build 9-5's and 9-3's.
Most important for Saab is to keep high quality standards.

Ha no I support your Asian 9-1 idea Markac, I must have just missed it (oops, my bad). You're full of insight for sure, and most of your predictions/thoughts are always on the mark (no pun intended).

The whole notion that Saab shouldn't focus on 9-4x sales while trying to get customers to buy 9-3s and 9-5s I think is a fallacy though. SUV buyers are SUV buyers, especially in this economy and with the current forecast for gas prices to increase. Premium SUV buyers (read: Suburban people) tend to not worry as much about gas prices as image and feel. In fact, most SUV buyers today are repeat SUV buyers who are moving from a bigger to a smaller SUV. They aren't ready to make the transition to a car again because they like the high driving position. BMW has done it's research on this, and thus the X6 was created. However ugly it is, there is still a waitlist for it. To get those customers into a Saab showroom at all is a coup. Maybe down the road you can get them into a new 9-3 or even their significant other into a 9-5, but you need to have a diversified base enough to get that customer period.

The other thing is, the 9-4x will obviously have a net positive effect on Saab long term. That's why Spyker has always maintained how crucial it is to their business plan. If it was going to hurt their profits by cannibalizing 9-3 or 9-5 sales, they would have left it out of the business plan. I have full confidence that the 9-4x will be tuned to feel more like a Saab than the Caddy, and I hope that these 2 years of testing pre-production models yields some good tweaks. From what I understand, the torque is limited to 295HP because of gearbox concerns, perhaps the gearbox could be swapped or adjusted to handle a more aggressive setup. Also, and maybe you or Swade know about this, but is it true that the 2.8V6 is Australian? Global car that 9-4x is.

The 2.8L V6 is assemble in Australia. I think the block is made in Mexico?

I know there is a good sized market for SUVs, especially in the US and I would rather an SUV buyer buys a 9-4x another brand. But Saab will probably have to sell at least 4 or 5 SUVs to make the same kind of money it would on a 9-3.
It disappoints me to see that so many SU regulars here, would rather buy the 9-4x to a 9-5 or a 9-3, especially when they are always complaining Saabs should be Swedish! I actually hope that the 9-4x is a reasonable seller and that Saab sells enough to keep GM happy, but only that much.

BTW I still think BAIC making the 9-1 base models is a good idea. If Saab could produce the lower models cheaply, it can offset the higher(Swedish made) models and the whole car more viable. The 9-1 needs to viable or it isn't going to happen.

Jocke. Moving 9-4x production is extremely difficult as GM needs to produce a certain number of 9-4x's at it's Mexican plant to make both the 9-4x and the Cadillac profitable. If Saab wanted to move the 9-4x to Sweden, it would have to pay all the R&D costs too.

That would be incredible if the path for the engine was Mexico--->Australia--->Mexico---->all other parts of the world, but I wouldn't be shocked seeing how parts come together and get used on all these cars. I really don't think that any 9-4x sales will hurt 9-5 or 9-3 sales, truly. A buyer who was going to get a 9-4x wasn't going to get a 9-5SC, they're very different customers.

I wouldn't mind if the 9-4x accounted for about 20% of Saab sales in the US, and perhaps 10 or 12% elsewhere. If the 9-4x was to become Saab's top selling model in the US, it would be a disappointing result indeed. I'm sure GM wouldn't mind though. Thankfully that's very unlikely.

Do we know the exact margins that Saab is getting from the 9-4x vs. the 9-3 or 9-5? I'm just curious, agree with you that it's considerably less for the 9-4x but I'm not sure how doom and gloom it really is.

I'd heard Saab wouldn't be making much on the car and other commenters have remarked on it too. I think this is one of the reasons Saab is putting much more priority on the 9-5 launch, and mentions little about the 9-4x.

This article hints at the situation:

http://www.caranddriver.com/news/car/10q1/saab_product_plans_for_2010_and_beyond-car_news

How does it actually add up? Q5 is at least a couple of hundred kg heavier than the 9-3 SS/SC, and yet it has much better acceleration figures and consumption figures with the same size engine... What is the smell, I wonder?

I admit my bias against SUVs, but I still hope the car is a reasonable seller, just not at the cost of other more important models. I sure hope you are right about the margins. I want to see Saab prosper as much as anyone else here.

BTW, I still promise to test drive a Volvo if the 9-4x is ever released in Oz. I'll go with my gut on that one. In any case, a test drive in a C30 wouldn't be too bad!

I know Ken. I was only comparing Q5 and 9-4X. 9-3X is in totally different leaque. Audi has A4 Allroad for that.

I´m only speaking from my view. I still don´t get SUV´s overall IF they do not bring anything else than higher driving position. Ordinary wagon is very capable if equipped with XWD and higher clearance. As I´ve came to find out by driving our Suby Outback.
Large SUV with 7 seats or huge load capacity is a different case.

But I have to remind myself not to judge 9-4X before I see & drive it in person.

"BTW, I still promise to test drive a Volvo if the 9-4x is ever released in Oz"

And I have to tell you that XC60 is one of the most comfortable cars that I´ve ever driven. It´s not bulky enough to be called SUV (as I understand SUV) but a real crossover instead. Excellent car.

Volvo actually offered me a drive in an XC60 as part of a weekend promotion. I had to work that weekend, so I couldn't accept the offer.

Completely agree. To add to your thought, I also think that the 9-4x has a much greater chance of converting those newcomers into loyal customers who would be interested in other Saabs. The very close styling, especially of the interior, gives a familiarity to the brand.

It's a huge opportunity for Saab dealers to make new customers. Once in the door, they need to instantly show why Saabs make more sense than their competition. I hope that they continue to offer free scheduled maintenance and upgrade their facilities (fresh coat of paint in some, ahem) and get the ball rolling. I would love to focus on dealers in a future thread if that's possible, Swade. I think we have some of our greatest opportunities as a site if we can all be ambassadors and help our dealers in some way.

Im not suprised by that MitchbSC.

The 9-7x is a fantastic SUV, granted its not a true Saab from the ground up but none the less a very nice machine. Personally my favourite car next to the dame edna 9-5.

I believe the 9-2x brought in a number of new buyers to dealerships who after their 9-2x's eventually bought 9-3's!.

I remember a U.S tv programme the office, Jim (a salesman) owned a 9-2x Aero and then in the most recent season he now has a 9-3 Aero!

According to SaabsUnited:

Sales of 9-7x in 2009 (from Jan to Oct) amounted to 2,058 vehicles, down by 35% on the 3,150 sold in the same period last year

While

Sales of the Saab 9-3 for the year (from Jan to Oct 09) totaled 4,480 cars, down by 67% from 13,877 sold in the same period last year.

People were buying the 9-7x. When it came out in 2005 Im sure I heard there was a backlog of 4000 orders.

Yes!! 9X BioHybrid looks fantastic! It different enough. Very much what I´d like to see in the future.
Not that I´d possibly buy one, but it´s just way cool.

I would bet my dog (more valuable than my house) on the 9-5x being to the 9-5 what the 9-3x is to the 9-3 right now. That would put a 9-5x some time in the future. Maybe released concurrently with a 9-5 wagon, but I think they'd hold it up 6 months for something to talk about and to let the 9-5 combi gain some traction on its own.

Sorry to disappoint you there Peter, the SRX is a beautiful car...like it or not...it sure as hell a better car than the Lexus ...it's leaps and bound ahead of the previous model and in my opinion it will highly likely be ahead of SAAB in terms of what to offer...the 9-4X is probably a great car but GM would have made sure it's disadvantaged severely compared to it's SRX, given a choice between SRX and 9-4X I would go for the SRX given it has a diesel or the 2.8 T...and as you've pointed out...that BLS was a mess cause it was mimicking the 9-3, are you saying the SRX is mimicking the 9-4X? I'd beg to differ...it's quite an elegant and complete car... this is the second Global GM cadillac after the CTS and it's gonna give the competition a hell of a lot of run for their money...I bet! ...but then again...it's my opinion too...

You would go for the SRX, only because you think GM could have vetoed features on the 9-4X?

1st; If you live in Europe I don't thin you will see an SRX soon.
2nd; If you live in the states forget about diesels, GM won't do a diesel SRX for the states.

What is the "global" part of the SRX?

Hi Tom, in that test I think it really all comes down to what the Caddy would have cost with AWD and the 2.8 Turbo if they could have gotten one. If the sticker was close to the Volvo, the performance numbers should have been competitive. That test is more a reflection of GM blowing it by not producing a top spec vehicle for the test. That said I have always loved the Volvo, we almost bought a V8 model instead of my wife's 9-3 combi (glad we didn't after the gas price spike of 2007). I hope when Saab gets rolling they'll get a top spec 9-4x in tester's hands ASAP. I would think they would finish in 1st or second place in that same test.

I hear u but don't agree! Saying that the SRX will have an advantage over the 9-4x, Is like saying the Buick Lacrosse will have one over the 9-5. Saab has the same base materials to work from as Caddy here. The SRX is mimicking the 9-4x. Remember, we saw the 9-4x concept first. The whole speedometer setup in the SRX is right out of the 9-4. Not to mention the FWD setup, XWD and the 2.8 turbo 6. The car will be right there in quality just as the SRX.

Audi, schmaudi. The attitude of their dealers leaves a heckuva lot to be desired. But then again there must be a lot of people who like being spoken to like they are something you find on the bottom of your shoe after a walk thru a busy dog park! That was my experience so Audi is way off my list - forever. Overpriced VW IMO!

SAAB needs the 9-4X now but as the saying goes 'better late than never!'. :o))

Im taking my SS out for a drive today as I am going to be away for three weeks on a SAAB-free vacation to escape the Olympics.

9-X is very beautiful - and true to the Saab-spirit with a progressive, eco-friendly and original attitude.... - not a word about the 9-4X needed to say then...