Saab’s debt – my personal view

Earlier today it was reported here on that Saab’s debt at the Swedish Enforcement Agency has risen to 27 million SEK. I’d like to put it a bit into perspective here.

Translated to EUR these 27 million SEK are about 2,96 million and devided by the 51 demands it’s a rough average of 58.000 EUR per case. So depite this is a bit of money for a normal person like me it’s still a rather small amount for a company of Saab’s scale. Don’t want to go into speculation too much as all facts I have are from that short article. The first idea one might have is that Saab simply doesn’t have the money to pay that, but I personally don’t think it’s that easy.

Given the sum I’d say that we are talking about rather small suppliers. As we know Saab is currently still in negotiations with many of them. Even during those ongoing negotiations some suppliers may want to increase the pressure in those discussions by demanding their money via the SEA. The way some part of the press reported about Saab recently may also encouraged some creditors to take that step. Business in every scale has quite a lot to do with confidence and we’ve already heared that suppliers want to make sure that Saab’s future is secured. They may hope for the best and prepare for the worst. The other thing is that as I can tell you from the experience of running a company myself there are always some disputable demands that you won’t pay before everything is cleared and you’re satisfied. It could easily be a big amount of the sum that belongs to that last point.

And after all we don’t have an idea who those creditors are. So to really understand this piece of information we would need to know a lot more than we do. So if you ordered a car just recently because you had trust in Saab there is no reason to be afraid now. The real reason this report came out is, like with many others, because of all those eyes staring at Saab right now.

Of course this is just my opinion but I think the best we can do is just keep calm and carry on until we know more facts.

AngryEngineer
Member
5 years 3 months ago

When will we hear anything from EIB? Won’t VA never be approved?

Red J
Member
5 years 3 months ago
AngryEngineer
Member
5 years 3 months ago

I don’t get why EIB can just stand by and see the troubles with SAAB and not react. What’s the deal? Do they know anything we don’t or are they just a bunch of slow ….???

scottishsaab
Member
5 years 3 months ago

Don’t know if this is new news or not found on the web earlier,,
Russian investor Vladimir Antonov is no longer to take part in a sale and leaseback deal of the property and plant of Saab, which had been aimed at raising funds for the car maker, his spokesman said on Tuesday.

JH
Member
5 years 3 months ago

I think it makes sense since Mr. Antonov didn’t get approval from the EIB and a deal with the Swedish real estate company Hemfosa seems to be in the works:
http://saabsunited.saabklubben.se/2011/06/press-release-discussions-about-sale-of-saab-property-ongoing.html

michaelb
Member
5 years 3 months ago
I think it is high noon for Saab. There are several holes where apparently money is lacking – unpaid supplier bills, tax bills, other. This situation is damaging the brand and the image of the brand in a big way. Keep calm and carry on might be okay for a fatalist, but not the right thing for a true Saab supporter. The consequence of all that is that the operation was underfunded in an insane way. It has to be signalled to the owners, that there is urgent need to recapitalize the operation in a much more profound way. Part… Read more »
Börjesson
Member
5 years 3 months ago
The operation is only “underfunded in an insane way” because the b*st*rds at the EIB can’t be bothered to let Antonov in. I don’t have enough info about the situation to determine whether Muller and his cohorts should have been able to anticipate that it would take this long; but instinctively I would say no. How could anyone guess that the EIB would just sit on their collective behinds for month after month? Short-term funding is therefore lacking primarily because of the EIB. Long-term funding – well, maybe a combination of a Chinese deal like the one proposed and some… Read more »
GerritN
Member
5 years 3 months ago

“How could anyone guess that the EIB would just sit on their collective behinds for month after month?”

The EIB is basically a European community institution. They’re led by bean counters and there is a lot of dirty politics going on (interest groups, etc.).
So yes, I expected this to happen from the beginning.

GerritN
Member
5 years 3 months ago

Btw, I’m not saying that EIB is the evil empire, just that you can expect it to be as slow as any other government run institution.

Ruune
Member
5 years 3 months ago

Remember the last press release from EIB? Read it again if not. They clearly say delays are much due to changes or uncertainity in the (owner) structure made by Saab / VM them selves. How could EIB possibly act different with regards to Saab than to any other company being processed by them. Saab is on the edge of bankrupcy and of course EIB, GM and all involved are extra carefull.

rune
Member
5 years 3 months ago

Swedish Automobile is a publically traded company. Ownership changes every day, without having to be pre-approved by EIB.

Can you demonstrate that other banks show similar concerns as their customers change their ownership structure..?

Besides, the biggest problem is that they seem to take forever to decide. Time is of an essence here, and they have known about Antonov for two years now.

There is no downside to EIB if Saab disappeared from the map tomorrow. EIB’s money is not at risk in any scenario.

Tripod
Member
5 years 3 months ago
“The operation is only “underfunded in an insane way” because the b*st*rds at the EIB can’t be bothered to let Antonov in. I don’t have enough info about the situation to determine whether Muller and his cohorts should have been able to anticipate that it would take this long; but instinctively I would say no. How could anyone guess that the EIB would just sit on their collective behinds for month after month?” I have no specific information; but if I should speculate, as everyone else seems to be doing, it could be that the EIB is waiting until the… Read more »
Audun
Member
5 years 3 months ago

+1

Börjesson
Member
5 years 3 months ago
Well, as we’re speculating freely anyway, let’s go all in! 😈 GM supposedly never had a problem with Antonov in the first place. They were warned about him from the Swedish government. (I think that was in Jonas Fröberg’s book? I haven’t read it, but I know that this particular conspiracy theory has been going around based on some at least semi-credible source.) And now, the EIB don’t really have a problem with Antonov either. It’s the Swedish govt who still don’t want him anywhere near Saab (for whatever unknown reason), but who also don’t want to look like the… Read more »
Quijote
Member
5 years 3 months ago

What’s up with last week’s temporary production stoppage. Have production restarted, or is the “temporary” moving more to an indefinite position?

TonymacUK
Member
5 years 3 months ago

+1

SAAB_Andee
Member
5 years 3 months ago

You can read the answer in the press release from last week. Nothing more to say

OliverH
Member
5 years 3 months ago

Ehen i think on the 10 Day timeframe and after that assets can be picked up I think:
This are debts with no discussion to pay or not to pay. If some one uses gov to get the money you normally have the right to say this bill is not correct and you can push it back to sender/ gov.
Maybe someone can describe the process in Sweden.

To get back trust Saab has to do a serious and fair business.

KarlR
Member
5 years 3 months ago

I think its time to give up! The brand is totally destroyed and even if they start again they dont have cash to save the brand! 🙁

Motoradd's Cat
Member
5 years 3 months ago

Unfortunately I tend to agree.

Things are looking really bad, and a report by Bloomberg paints an even more depressing picture.

It looks like BAIC may get Saab at a discount price (Liquidation) and shift the whole production line to Beijing.

This whole affair seems to be tracking the demise of MG Rover.

I wish it wasn’t so, and I hope some miracle is on the Horizon.

hans h
Member
5 years 3 months ago

This is NOTHING like Rover/MG.

Saab 9-5 and 9-4x are fresh, modern and beautiful. And 9-3 is just behind the corner.
When BMW bought Rover, they bought the brands and an old factory. And several outdated Roverified Hondas.

I repeat, this is NOT Rover allover again!

Take a deep breath, stay Calm and Carry on. 😉

zippy
Member
5 years 3 months ago

Im afraid the similarities are strikingly similar. BMW invested in Rover to build the Rover 75 which was, in fact, based on a 5 series floorpan and received some quite positive reviews.

I dont want the Saab brand to die but IMO the writing has been on the wall since late March. I hope like hell I am wrong though!!! 🙁

hans h
Member
5 years 3 months ago

I don’t see any similarities beyond the fact that Saab is in trouble and Rover was in trouble,
Chrysler was in trouble and is now bought by Fiat which is selling Chryslers re-badged as Lancias. That is in that case also similar.

If this had happened WITHOUT the new 9-5 and 9-4x, THEN I could perhaps agree with you.
But not now.

Griffin Up! 🙂

Kikaluka
Member
5 years 3 months ago

Buy a Saab. It will make you feel better.

Toby K
Member
5 years 3 months ago

The problem is if the one you want isn’t in stock are you really going to put a deposit on an order??

I am Saab mad, but I wouldn’t do that….not now.

rune
Member
5 years 3 months ago

A deposit, if required, is between you and the dealership, no?

Which is a potential problem regardless of the brand you are shopping for.

anders
Member
5 years 3 months ago

Give up? What, are you mad? We’ll never give up this fight. Not until the day the factory is dust and the cars are just a pleasant memory of a time that was way better. We’ve been trough hell and back so many times with this company now that it is just not possible to throw in that darn towel yet.

The fat lady isn’t even fat by American standards.

goofy
Member
5 years 3 months ago

KarlR & Motoradd: -1!!

Anders & Kikaluka: +1!!

Börjesson
Member
5 years 3 months ago

The fat lady isn’t even fat by American standards.

😆 Classic! 😆

scottishsaab
Member
5 years 3 months ago

Just read an article online where it says that Saab still owes 300-500 million crowns to its suppliers, Would be interesting to find out how much truth is in that!!!!

BoeBoe
Member
5 years 3 months ago

Where did you read that? Was it just a ballpark figure? Of from a more “credible” source?

Ralph
Member
5 years 3 months ago

Time will tell, as always. If there’s truth in that, you’ll hear from it. If not, there will be silence.

solvy
Member
5 years 3 months ago

some positive news: in the first 10 days of june, saab sold 8 cars in austria. the positive trend of the previouse month is still continuing. in june 2010 saab sold 9 cars in total. hope the other markets will follow this trend.

Jonas Axelsson
Member
5 years 3 months ago
There are many facets to this. What did Carlstrom mean? Saying he is not taking part can mean he is not interested or any number of things. Regarding perspective, the daughter of Bernie Ecclestone just bought a house in California for $150,000,000 and considering her home in Chelsae is $90,000,000, well, dad could have got had his daughter give a hand. The debt from the first advertising agency was considerable so when you total the bills up there are probably a lot of parties standing in line. A lot of lawyers certainly ask for money on account for a good… Read more »
spacy
Guest
5 years 3 months ago

Gossip is dangerous………

SAAB should make some clear statement about these small debts….Silence will only make conjector more rife & more distant from the truth…

Over to you VM.

ALSO, As a company I assume if SAAB hits the rocks, then it will take Spyker with it!!

SAAB_Andee
Member
5 years 3 months ago
Too much gossip in here – Take a break and don´t take every story from somewhere for serious. There will be a sale and leaseback deal not with VA. The “Fonds” pays in cash and don´t wants to be a shareholder so it´s easy to get this deal done if the price is right. Problem with the sale and leaseback deal with antonov was the stake in spyker. After the Hawtai and Pangda deal all media stated saab has an existing “mou” with youngman and the ndrc wouldn´t allow with others to deal with. Now the choose youngman and nothing… Read more »
Khrisdk
Member
5 years 3 months ago

+1

spacy
Guest
5 years 3 months ago

Gossip is dangerous………

jim
Member
5 years 3 months ago

Buying a 9-5 right now would be great. Nothing conveys pimpitude quite like the 9-5 Aero right now.

scottishsaab
Member
5 years 3 months ago

Boe Boe,
It was an article in Reuters so don’t know how reliable a source they are but those were the figures they had stated!!

SAAB_Andee
Member
5 years 3 months ago

this so called reliable source doesn´t really now and recovers old numbers – and the figures stated where no real debts because some suppliers wanted to be paid in front for weeks or more as guarantee

BoeBoe
Member
5 years 3 months ago

On the balance sheet released by Spyker on 31-3-2011 there was a short term debt of 244,4 million euro’s. These were so called “Trade payables”.

Trade Payables
Definition – payables which are related directly to the company’s primary operations.
Examples of trade creditors – suppliers for raw materials, suppliers for other inventories received and payables for services rendered.
Category – Accounts Payable / Trade Payables.

“Trade payables and other payables are non-interest bearing and are normally settled on an average 47-day terms”

Jonas Axelsson
Member
5 years 3 months ago
Honestly we would not be looking at so many news and press reports if fellows like Carlstrom were accurate and concise in their press releases. Like one of the media asked him when he came out with the first of the Antonov series, “Who are you representing today”, and he chuckled. Perhaps it was because he was also pitching Ecclestone the week before. He kind of starts his own rumors or points at shadows, the ones he knows we want to see. We all hate and mistrust big government, big industry and big this or that. Hmmm, is it possible… Read more »
Jake
Member
5 years 3 months ago
I can’t read this thread of comments: they’re just too depressing! Saab will be dragged face-down through the mud for another long year until the new 9-3 is unveiled. Even CM admitted this. Right now, Ramos Arizpe is making cars. And they’re being delivered. In other words, Saab is not kneeling in fronton the sh***er, so we don’t have much to worry about now. I know we don’t normally have trolls on SU, but apparently there are bridges nearby… 😀 Hush yourselves, and let VM work his magic. That’s all I can and WANT to say for now.
Bravada from GMI
Member
5 years 3 months ago
The Enforcement Agency speaks out: http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=sv&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fttela.se%2Fekonomi%2Fsaab%2F1.1250707-52-krav-pa-saab-hos-fogden Det totala beloppet på de 52 fordringarna som berör Saab är på 27 miljoner kronor. The total amount of the 52 claims involving Saab is in 27 million. – En del av dem kan vara felaktiga och en del kan redan vara betalda, säger Christina Lindberg. – Some of them may be incorrect and some may already be paid, “says Christina Lindberg. [of the Agency Kongsberg Automobile is one of the largest creditors with a requested principal amount of nearly 4.3 million for vehicle components. So the indiviual amounts aren’t huge. According to the… Read more »
RS
Member
5 years 3 months ago
Sorry for venting, but what a colossal mistake it was to send thousand(s) of 9-5’s to NA last year without apparently making any market studies about demand of a bigger and more expensive Saab sedan in the US? Pay IAC today to get the MY12 interior parts flowing (send some to NA to be put on the MY10 cars). Sometimes all the time spent on haggling over smaller details can cloud your judgement about the big picture. Building cars is far more important than almost any details at this point. Get an agreement that you will look at everything in… Read more »
Nissi
Member
5 years 3 months ago
SAAB´s critical production suppliers do not use SEA for collecting overdue debts. The custom (all over the world) is to stop production deliveries, if not paid.according to previous agreements made with SAAB. Many suppliers now also are practicing this, which might cause a bankruptcy for SAAB, but that is SAAB´s problem, and nothing for the suppliers. For them losses on a SMALL customer like SAAB easily must and can be written of f from their booked customer claims in the semiannual report July 1, (if not payments are received in early July). The SEA debts below son the other hand… Read more »
Peter95
Member
5 years 3 months ago
A view from an unpaid supplier …………. We have been very patient, kept suppling when we have not been paid, always hoping that next week we will get paid. We were given a payment schedule, which we thought was OK, but when this was not kept to we can only be so patient. Not being paid has a direct effect on staff, they do not get paid. So imagine not having any income for 4 months? Would you keep suppling hoping that money will be coming “next week”? I doubt many of you would continue working in your present jobs… Read more »
rune
Member
5 years 3 months ago

Peter95, when was the last time you were in contact with Saab? Any contact since the Pang Da deal?

Peter95
Member
5 years 3 months ago

In contact nearly every day.

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