Buying Saab Museum cars?
September 23, 2011 in Editorial
Yesterday Paul Åkerlund, the chairman of the city council board of Trollhättan called upon enthusiasts to help save the Saab Museum in case the reconstruction would fail for some reason. This was a direct plea for help to us!
What I suggest is that we start a fund-raiser, a foundation is created with a number of trustees, who these people should be needs to be discussed. Then a foundation is to be created with a bank and the money collected. I would be more than happy to help organize the foundation and even contribute with a significant amount, but I and the rest of SaabsUnited would need a lot of help. From ALL the clubs out there in the world and all the Saab fans! The amount mentioned in yesterdays news were apron 5 Million swedish crowns, which is about 650’000 Euro. I’m no fool and I never dream of raising this kind of money but it would be nice if we could buy at least a portion of the cars!
For each car bought, an amount must also be reserved to keep the car in acceptable condition for a certain period of time. The foundation would also have to keep on collecting money by for example sales of posters and other items that can help maintain the cars value. Depending on the money collected and the price of the cars, a number of cars would be bought to be preserved for the future, owned and managed by the foundation. Perhaps maintenance performed by private volunteers.
I have talked about the idea with the Saab Museum management and as Paul Åkerlund states, no doors must be closed at the moment!
Now my question to you!
is this a good idea? YES or NO? if so why!
Marque said on September 23, 2011
Generally a very soul stirring initiative and a good starter for planning the project. However I think that at some point private investors may have to take over the properties. Because, I am uncertain if the whole collection and exhibition of cars will be sustainable on a non-profit foundation basis on the long term. Just a thought.
saabsessing said on September 23, 2011
Is this Plan A or Plan B? In other words, is the creation of a foundation and the purchase of at least a portion of the collection a commitment that will be made regardless?
If Saab prevails (which it will, by the way), I would love to see the museum stay as it is – complete and under Saab’s custodianship. I would hate to see the collection become fragmented in either case. But, I’m also willing to put my money where my mouth is – a preserved partial collection is better than no collection at all.
It is mindblowing to think that the bilmuseum survived under GM ownership and a previous reconstruction, and it took until now to seriously consider its future.
TimR said on September 23, 2011
The idea is that this needs to happen before the 3 months of reconstruction is up so regardless of what happens to Saab we need to act!
The cars will stay in the museum with the rest of the collection. The only difference is that they are owned by the foundation. The person visiting the museum will never know the difference!
Khrisdk said on September 23, 2011
One question first:
From what I could understand from the interview the main problem is not so much buying out the cars, but the actual running of the museum? 4-6 mill SEK a year as far a I remember
I know the primary target first off would be the cars, but I think the best contribution would be for the museum to keep running as is and thus somehow making it possible for those interested to make some sort of yearly/monthly payment. It seems better suited for a community.
A lot of people pays their annual fees to different clubs etc. so it would not make the task so big in the eyes of the individual person
TimR said on September 23, 2011
That is probably a very good idea… create a sort of membership of the foundation with monthly contributions coming from people…
JasonPowell said on September 23, 2011
That sounds good, I like the idea of a membership of sorts. Monthly contributions would work out to be more money then one time donations.
Swizzy said on September 23, 2011
Yes, I’m with you Tim! Anyway, there has to be a new way to prevent the cars and the „industrial-history. SAAB-Enthusiasts over whole world could be one part for such a solution. Personally, I’m ready to help, whatever the best solution would be.
TimR said on September 24, 2011
Thank you! =) We are going to need all the help we can get!
BoeBoe said on September 23, 2011
650.000 = Running cost [needs to be paid every year]
Nothing is mentioned about the price of the 109 cars (the cars you want to buy). Maybe it is a good idea to find out how much these cars are worth before you want to buy them.
TimR said on September 23, 2011
Well, the city of Trollhättan have already done that! As I stated, I have talked to the management of the museum. We are not talking about running the museum, someone else will need to do that! But helping out in buying some of the cars and maintaining them is also a major thing we actually can do!
If you want to contribute constructively in to this thread on how we actually can achieve this thing, please do so, but do not question my intelligence ever again! You have crossed the line too many times before and with this thing I have zero tolerance for stupid comments!
Hans H said on September 24, 2011
Do one get to choose which car one makes an investment in?
I was at this museum three months ago, and I cannot fathom what is happening.
Yes, I’d like to help.
TimR said on September 24, 2011
Thats also one thing to discuss… which car is the most important to invest in etc… difficult thing that is…
Robban said on September 24, 2011
Not a good idea. It just wouldn’t work, everyone that chip in on this wants to take their piece of the pie, and that IS going to be more than just go to the museum and seeing the car, I mean who will that car be registered to? That person can just walk into the museum and grab the car, and then it’s gone. That my friends is going to happen if we go down this path, which we won’t, frankly I’m almost upset that this question is up on the agenda, many Saab-fans are borderline greedy and uses foul methods to get hold of say, various Saab “stuff” I see it regularly and hear about it regularly. And I think many of you all know what I’m talking about. The reconstruction is going great and this WILL NOT be a problem, get the idea of buying the cars from the museum out of your heads. As everyone already knows the problem ISN’T buying the cars, and no one should try to buy them either, it’s just wrong and the collection would be scattered.
There is only one owner of the Saab Car Museum, if things go completely hay-wire and that is….wait for it… Trollhättans kommun / Trollhättan Municipality, period.
I do agree that the thing the Saab community can do, is to donate/yearly membership to help keep the museum open, we can not make a huge difference but we can help, do our part. But again buying the cars in the collection is very, very wrong.
TimR said on September 24, 2011
Well I don’t think you understand how this works… Buy giving money to a foundation you do not have the right to claim anything from that. It is a pure gift. Just like you give money to the red cross or where-ever…
The foundation would own the cars managed by the contract that is written between the museum and the foundation about how the foundations money shall be used. This is all very clearly controlled by the authorities… No cars will ever be made available to anyone regardless of how much money one has put into the foundation. By giving money you are supporting a cause, thats it…
The city of Trollhättan can not afford to buy the cars and run the museum, they need help and they are asking EVERYONE for help, including us!
Robban said on September 24, 2011
Oh, I thought that the idea was to buy the cars, I must have gotten that part messed up. So basically the same can be done by say, buying a yearly membership, to support the same cause ie the Saab Car Museum.
If things go hay-wire, Trollhättan municipality should buy everything and run the show, and we, the enhtusiast could then buy something like a yearly “Saab Car Museum Membership”, that in my mind is the healthiest thing to do.
Robban said on September 24, 2011
From what I understand they don’t have a problem buying the museum and it’s contents , the problem is “only” in running it.
TimR said on September 24, 2011
I agree, the foundation (stiftelsen) needs to have continuous funding in order to function. So some kind of membership where the money goes straight into the account of the foundation is absolutely necessary…
I know that Trollhättan can not afford the whole thing, its just way too expensive for them and they are also afraid to take on something like this. A museum should not be run by politicians which is what would happen!… It needs to be owned by private ventures, such as this foundation but then operated by the city…
ivo 71 said on September 25, 2011
A point of order: a foundation can’t have members. It can, however, have benefactors who, normally speaking, don’t have any real say-so in the administration and day-to-day running of the foundation. That is solely the privilege of the foundation’s board, generally composed of the founders of the foundation, and, if required, management appointed/hired by the board. It’s a somewhat authoritarian setup but the nice thing about is that there are less problems with potential conflicting interests owing to the limited number of people with authority to decide.
What cán have (contributing) members is an association. That, unlike a foundation,must have a board elected from amidst the members, day-to-day managers/administrators and clear articles of association which give the members a measure of participation in the running of the association. This is much more democratic, of clourse, but can also be excrutiatingly frustrating for those in charge since there many people with potentially incompatible interests who can, nevertheless, exert influence or even take over the running of the association at times when board members get re-elected (or not) and appointed administrators c.q. managers can get kicked out.
There are other types of organization as well that can be used in these situations.
If this thing is actually going to happen then I suggest you think really hard about the legal form this entity will be set up in and consult a good lawyer or notary. We are talking national industrial heritage. That is way too important to risk running onto the rocks because the organizational structure was inadequate to begin with.
Ivo
Steve C. said on September 24, 2011
The comments have been helpful for clarifying. I wasn’t clear on scope of this action from all the main posts on this subject. It seems the real need is for the “foundation” to own the cars (however many can be afforded) so they can’t be claimed as a Saab asset to be liquidated. If the foundation owned various Saabs now in the Museum, Saab would be loaned the cars for display and maintenance (since Saab likes to use them, they would pay). That would be the minimum requirement and probably should be the first priority. If things got worse for Saab’s existence, the foundation would have to figure out what to do with the cars it owns but at least the cars will be preserved.
TimR said on September 24, 2011
Exactly… we need to discuss this even further to see where it can end up… its very constructive! =)
SpinM said on September 24, 2011
Ok, to put this one step ahead and make a foundation to save what is most sacret if need be, is it possible to make a list of museum cars by priority (by historical value)? It’s a thankless job, I know. Perhaps SUHRT could help?
Just a thought.
TimR said on September 24, 2011
Yes, we need a list… this one is the most difficult thing…
Steve C. said on September 24, 2011
I should also add that Saab can decide to sell its collection to anyone at any price. A foundation might be able to get a “great deal” to simply “own” the cars.
I have mixed emotions that we have to be talking about this. I would certainly want to hear from Saab as to what they wanted to protect the Saabs in the museum. They might be able to pave the way for this as part of this reconstruction by making the Museum its own subsidiary or division. There might be a way to isolate assets. There are lots of possibilities.
TimR said on September 24, 2011
No they can not. They have to sell the cars at what is to be considered a market price. If they sell them at a discounted price, in case of bankruptcy anyone can claim that the price was not right and the purchase of the cars would be canceled and the cars returned to the administrator. Therefore its very important that they are sold at a market price.
But this price is also discussable. For example the Aero X is street registered as a prototype car under Saab. If the car would get a new owner the street-approval will disappear and the car will never be allowed a new one. So the value of the car is variable depending on the ownership…
The problem is that the enforcement agency has already acted so there is no way for Saab to change anything right now. The only way is that Saab sells them off and receives money for it and gives it to the enforcement agency. What we need to find out is the value of the claim that the enforcement agency has done for each car…
Tripod said on September 24, 2011
It’s good of you to examine the interest and talk with the Museum management et al to see what can be done.
First thought was that it has to be very well planned; one can’t start collecting contributions and later on everything takes another direction, with a different solution, so one need to examine all possible solutions, and I’m sure you do. It’s possible that there is enough interest in the community, but as has been mentioned, the running of the museum is a big cost every year. And then there has to be continued interest over many years, for continuous funding, as you said Tim.
Another thought:
“The problem is that the enforcement agency has already acted so there is no way for Saab to change anything right now. The only way is that Saab sells them off and receives money for it and gives it to the enforcement agency.”
The situation is very special, but as you say, the DEA has already acted, so in a normal case Saab would not be able to do anything with the goods.
Pure speculation from me, and I understand that they are now working on the revised business plan, the reorganisation etc. to be ready at the first meeting with the creditors, perhaps there are also negotiations going on. As I understand the debt at the DEA, at the moment, is somewhere between 10-20% of the total sum overdue debts (150 MEUR), perhaps between 15-20%. But not all of it is being collected. If Saab can negotiate with all suppliers so that they can be able to pay those that have debts at the DEA plus the other, and arrive at something around 10-25% as a first payment, as has been speculated earlier, then that would save the cars. But one would still need a solution to make sure it doesn’t happen again.
Eleven said on September 24, 2011
TimR, I too believe that the history of SAAB should be maintained if the worst where the happen, so heres a simple, but rather large idea : SAAB have over 90,000 Facebook ‘likes’, if each person gave €10.00 that would be €900,000!!
As I say, late at night, first thought, but often the simplest are the best! Not much to ask from everyone who believes and loves SAABS!!
Ah, and if it does work, we all get a VIP Tour
Katsura said on September 24, 2011
What is to stop some rich individuals bid UP the price of some of the cars? If the worst comth, this will be handled by an auction company, and they will just try to get as much money as possible.
Peter Gilbert said on September 24, 2011
I am involved with a few museums in Europe and North America. How about volunteer docents? Right now if we all chipped in a few donations it could help pay for operating expenses like electricity, janitorial supplies, etc. Anything to help the bottom line.
At the Wisconsin auto Museum, in Hartford, Wisconsin (where my SPG is exhibited) we just held a fund-raising banquet to celebrate its 25 Anniversary.
Whatever it takes. This collection is irreplaceable.
tauentzien said on September 24, 2011
I think a foundation would be a great idea, but has someone already talked with Saab? What do they think about the idea. If you want to buy something, someone needs to sell it!
phermansson said on September 24, 2011
In Sweden there’s nothing strange that the authorities owns museums, so Trollhättan Stad might very well buy it. We also have the province authorities, “Västra Götalandsregionen” who own museums.
And how about EU? They sponsor a lot of different projects, wouldn’t be surprised if there are some sort of aid to apply for there.
Ken H said on September 24, 2011
I’m for this idea. After all, the way Sweden is moving the only signs of Swedish industry will be in the museums…
In addition to start up, raising funds can be done in many ways, as already mentioned some kind of banquet/party can work as such.
vladarh said on September 24, 2011
+1
larssverre said on September 24, 2011
Yes, we must do something. A foundation that can save the Saab museum is a very good idea. I am a Norwegian man and want to help but do not know how.
I will be traveling to Trollhattan the 30.09 to 02.10 and then I visit the Saab Car Museum.
slant4 said on September 24, 2011
YEs there needs to be something, perhaps along the lines of British Motor Heritage, It can have a lot of spin offs and eventually perhaps start making obsolete parts. I think it should cover all Swedish motor industry, possibly even all Scandinavia, as there mush be some Valmet stuff too. The likes of Scania and Volvo reconise their heritage and certainly in Holland, there is a big interest in old vehicles (especially British for some reason). The fact that the Swedish Authorities realise this, would suggest that they may have some funding to be accessed?
dave said on September 24, 2011
I think it can be done. Speaking for myself I can’t afford to give away much money, but if any contribution is welcome, why not ? It could be like being a member of a football club. Pay a fee, then get a discount when watching the games
akis96 said on September 24, 2011
I strongly believe that the Saab Museum shall remain under Saab owner- and custodianship.
.
Saab on the other hand cannot afford to sell the museum and it’s cars etc. for little money because this would infringe the rights of Saab debitors and they would cry out about it. I also believe it is going to have very negative media response for Saab: I see the headlines “Saab selling off family silver & it’s heritage – so the remains will be moved to China soon” – something like that.
I beleve that Saab will survive the current situation. I’d rather put my money into a new Saab (helps Saab more) or into restoring / preserving my own Saab 96v4 so I’ll be able to drive it up to Trollhättan next year and visit the Museum (and again spend money there
Only in the case of a wind-down we should set up something for all Saab fans around the world and the City of Trollhättan so the Museum can live on.
Today I would love to buy Saab shares knowing that those shares included not only the Saab factory but also the Museum and prove all those people wrong who wrote about the end of Saab. Griffin Up!
terry9000k said on September 24, 2011
.
To get a few points straight here.
Whilst the administrator is in charge, Saab management have little say in what happens here.
The administrator also has little say over the museum cars as the DEA already has charged them, beyond any endeviours to pay the debts off & release the assets back into the pot.
As for their value, in the above circumstances, it is very much a case, of their value, is what you can get for them at the time of sale. Unfortunately/fortunately[for a buyer] this is the facts of charges from legal enforcement firms & generally what forced sale is all about .
lars-ake said on September 24, 2011
I work just 50 meters from the museum,