Photo: Roger Larch, ttela

SvD: New hope (interview with a Pang Da executive)

Photo: Roger Larch, ttela
A report from SvD is currently making the rounds in Swedish media. New hope of Chinese money.

Last week we received the approval of the local branch of the NDRC in the city of Hangzhou. This is where Youngman’s headquarter is located.

-Next week on Wednesday we hope to get through it at the provincial level, Zhejiang Province.


Rachel Pang is confident a NDRC approval from the province is forthcoming and that it normally takes about a month for the central authority of NDRC (in Peking) to render the final verdict based on what the local and provincial branches of NDRC say.

SvD claims BAIC feels that they have a right to the next generation 9-3, which seems a bit odd since they are currently on the previous generation. There was some talk about BAIC possibly upgrading to the current 9-3 once the phoenix 9-3 is put into production, which could be a problem in case Youngman plans on doing the same. But this might be why we have heard murmurs of a 9-1 (and other models) as this would neatly sidestep any claims BAIC have to the existing model range.

I hope Monday’s appeal is a good one. With what little I know, I think it might be a good idea for Pang Da to provide some sales forecasts that gives the court some idea of how many cars they expect to sell in China. Feel free to chime in with other ideas for the appeal papers in the comments section.

Thank you Henrik and Håkan for the tip

ThomasJ
Member
5 years 20 days ago

If I remeber right JAJ was confused already when BAIC made their own models of the current generation of the 9-3.

Belfast_Saab
Member
5 years 20 days ago

All a bit confusing for sure, too many slices of the pie sold or promised to different parties. Old 9-5 and pre-2007 9-3 sold to BAIC?

ryanonsrc
Member
5 years 20 days ago

Oh my God … this seriously reminds me of those action films where the hero comes in and disarms a nuclear bomb immediately when the countdown timer reaches 1 second!

I don’t see how it could get more down to the wire than this …

rune
Member
5 years 20 days ago

I find it odd that the people who produce those timers would not simply skip 0:00:1 and get right to the bang?

The movies would most assuredly become more interesting that way.

ryanonsrc
Member
5 years 20 days ago

Just as long as the bang takes place at the end of the movie.

Otherwise, if it were at the beginning, I am pretty sure all of the theater audience would be demanding a refund after paying full price for a 5 minute movie 🙂

JST1981
Member
5 years 20 days ago

We need Bruce Willis, Chuck Norris and the terminator! An of course Jackie Chan for the Chinese side.

hans h
Member
5 years 20 days ago

Jet Li and Jason Statham.

And Daniel Craig!

🙂

Khrisdk
Member
5 years 20 days ago

I would just stick to Lobo, as in DC comics Lobo.

The short overview:

“Superhuman sense of smell, strength, stamina, and durability
Regenerative healing factor
Immortality
Genius level intellect

And a seriously bad attitude 🙂

esc
Member
5 years 20 days ago

Why not a swede?
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0645941/
/Lennart

goofy
Member
5 years 19 days ago

Ha! I had forgotten that Charlie Chan was Swedish.

ivo 71
Member
5 years 19 days ago

I guess we already have a few Boris Karloffs and Christopher Lees, residing in Stockholm and Brussels respectively…

Ivo

moose
Member
5 years 20 days ago
If only this deal have happened 6+ months earlier, before the current production stop and crisis (initially called as a “minor glitch” by Victor by the way) and Saab might have a fighting change … Now Saab’s brand is way too damaged to recover without considerably larger investment what Chinese are making. 245m€ (-150m€ overdue debt) is nowhere near enough to make Saab a credible brand in the eyes of buying public. With that money you would keep the company running for another 6-12 months, when you need the funding to cover 60+ months of heavy losses. So please, dear… Read more »
rune
Member
5 years 20 days ago

You have deep insight into Youngman and Pang Da’s plans for Saab in the future?

Please share.

moose
Member
5 years 20 days ago
No I don’t. And neither do you. But what I do know is that if there would be any more money coming from that direction Victor would have announced that long time ago. Please remember that Victor is not exactly shy of announcing larger amounts of money than there really is. Remember the “fully funded business plan” with investments of 1 billion euros which he telling to every media on the planet after the acquisition of Saab? I also know that if Youngman and Pang Da get the change to invest to Saab, they are well prepared for the possibility… Read more »
Jeff
Member
5 years 19 days ago

You must have skipped over the fact that the Saab name is essentially licensed by Saab AB, the aerospace defense company. They’ve already indicated that they’re upset about the tarnishing that the name has received through thus liquidity crisis. If Saab goes under, no Chinese company will be able to use the name, their only hope is through saving the company now.

Sadim
Member
5 years 20 days ago

I think one must assume that the Chinese will go into this with the ambition to invest more. They know you dont develop new models with a few hundred million Euros.

Henric Tungström
Member
5 years 20 days ago

It´s already official, Youngman will finance the three new cars (on top of the investment) and Saab will contribute with design and engineering.

OliverH
Member
5 years 20 days ago

I think it’s still possible to get customers on board. But it needs a real message: we’re strong, we fixed our financial problems, look on our innovative portfolio coming.
Then Saab has to do a real job to make dealers confident and give them some numbers and facts.
And Saab needs a real CEO and CFO, not coming from SWAN. They should be Swedish.

moose
Member
5 years 20 days ago

I think it’s still possible to get customers on board. But it needs a real message: we’re strong, we fixed our financial problems, look on our innovative portfolio coming.

Totally agree. In February this would have been probably doable with 245m€, but now it takes many times more than that. And there is no-one willing to put 1+ billion euros to a company which is sure to lose them, just for a change of of company in 5 years time to start getting back to black.

ryanonsrc
Member
5 years 20 days ago

So please, dear fellow Saab fans, let’s start the “Saab was not given enough time”-discussion when the court rejects (rightfully) the appeal for reconstructions next week…

Perhaps if you consider economic suicide by effectively killing the nation’s automotive industry, out of spite, “rightful” behavior — then I suppose you could consider such a rejection to be a reasonable.

moose
Member
5 years 20 days ago
Perhaps if you consider economic suicide by effectively killing the nation’s automotive industry, out of spite, “rightful” behavior — then I suppose you could consider such a rejection to be a reasonable. There is no “spite”. Absolutely none. I love the brand! I really do. But fandom should not turn anyone in to mindless fanboy who disregards facts on the table. But the truth is that Saab is a company which been going downhill because of various reasons for the past 25 years. In other words other companies have been doing better job, and offered products which consumers prefer over… Read more »
Khrisdk
Member
5 years 20 days ago

That is just the question:

Is Saab terminally ill?

I don’t think that anybody will help keeping Saab alive by government funding or goverrnment life support.
Saab is on its own.
Saab will have to make it on its own

History has no relevance in the current proceedings. Saab is where it is at, and will have to handle it from there.

rune
Member
5 years 20 days ago
But the truth is that Saab is a company which been going downhill because of various reasons for the past 25 years Is that a different way of saying that they haven’t turned a profit during all that time? That is both true and false at the same time. Would you agree that when judging the balance sheet you should factor in the profits made from selling Saab’s products in North America? If you do that, then Saab turned a profit as late as 2007. Saab’s books show the costs producing those cars, but the profits turns up in GM… Read more »
moose
Member
5 years 20 days ago
Is that a different way of saying that they haven’t turned a profit during all that time? No it is not. Rune, you are clearly a big fan of Saab, and it is great that people have passion in them! However as mentioned “fandom should not turn anyone in to mindless fanboy“, and I’m sorry to say that you fill the textbook definition of a ‘fanboy’. I would love to discuss (and even debate) these subjects at hand in rational manner. I’m however sure that you have encountered (and tried to have a rational conversation) with ‘fanboys’ yourself (e.g. with… Read more »
Khrisdk
Member
5 years 19 days ago

That is exactly the arrogance that makes it fruitless taking up the discussion.

You cry fanboy and refrain from supporting your POV.
That just makes you mildly annoying, but not really worth the discussion.
There is no point in discussiong anything with anybody whos stance is that of holding the right to judge other Fanboys/Fanbois as opposed to serving up argumentation

Troels, Denmark
Member
5 years 20 days ago

I disagree regarding the products. Peoples (consumers) knowledge about real qualities, cars and especially Saab has been insufficient. Which points to Saabs marketing, not their products.
Besides: the world needs people, leaders, brands, products etc. which are not just followers and in opportunistic ways do what the think the majority wants. From politicians and “trendy” products without substance, thinking individuals know that more then enough.

moose
Member
5 years 20 days ago

What I said was “ [other car manufacturers] offered products which consumers prefer“. So I never claimed that the products themselves would have been bad, just that consumers have preferred other brands. And naturally there are hundreds of reasons why this has happened (and marketing is one of them).

Having said that, realistically speaking the products in the past decades have not been great either. Having owned 9-3 in two generations (’98 and ’08), I have to say that if I would have picked just the “best product”, my choice would not have been Saab.

Troels, Denmark
Member
5 years 20 days ago

ok – Moose ; You are right about your wordings. My interpretation was that you thought Saab should have been more “populistic” with their products – and there I would have disagreed.

RS
Member
5 years 19 days ago
realistically speaking the products in the past decades have not been great either. Having owned 9-3 in two generations (’98 and ’08), I have to say that if I would have picked just the “best product”, my choice would not have been Saab. moose, what are you talking about? You thought the 9-3’s were no good or you didn’t like them but you bought them anyway? I bet these cars were the best at the price you could spend at the time or it wouldn’t have made any sense. If you want the best product it gets a bit tricky… Read more »
moose
Member
5 years 19 days ago
You thought the 9-3′s were no good or you didn’t like them but you bought them anyway? I bet these cars were the best at the price you could spend at the time or it wouldn’t have made any sense. As mentioned if I would have picked rationally the “best product” it would not have been Saab. Even for the same money there were better products than Saab 9-3. In 2008 9-3 was already an old model and honestly even recently launched models from “non-premium mass-manufacturers” were just better products (not to mention then brand new A4). But you don’t… Read more »
RS
Member
5 years 19 days ago
I respectfully disagree. I have never bought Saabs because I wanted to be different. I got into the brand (a long time ago) when there were A LOT them on the road and there wasn’t anything special about owning one. The thing is Saab was and still is the best car in a county where you have to deal with winter/snow, moose, roads where it’s difficult to overtake etc etc. I have on numerous occasions called for improvements to the interior of the 9-3 just to make it visually more attractive against some other brands, but I’ve never said new… Read more »
ryanonsrc
Member
5 years 19 days ago
There is no “spite”. Absolutely none. I love the brand! I really do. moose: I was not saying that this spite was coming from you. I would never say such a thing about a fellow Saab fan. What I was saying is that this spite is coming from the Swedish government. Terminally ill companies cannot be kept artificially alive. If anyone is terminally ill: it would be the goons running the Swedish government! Granted: I will admit that it is arguable whether or not a government should simply hand a big-fat check over to an ailing automaker. There is much… Read more »
Peter, Sweden
Member
5 years 20 days ago
Moose, why are so many of you nay-sayers so obsessed by the sum of 2,5 million? Yes, that is the amount Saab will receive initially for Pang Da and Youngman entering the company, but do you really think they will be done then? That they’ll transfer the cash and leave? The deal will open up for much more investing, for much more fair loans AND for the start of production witch of course also would slowly starting to fill the gaps in Saab’s accounts. Not to even mention the financing of the 9-1, 9-6 and 9-7. Please, try to think… Read more »
DUTCH900C
Member
5 years 20 days ago

Peter, i can’t agree more as that what you have wrote!
Thank you for thes wise words!

ryanonsrc
Member
5 years 20 days ago

Peter is correct … Victor himself said that the Chinese are not going to just drop the money and run off.

They plan to take part in building cars, and funding further development: which will take place in Sweden. I also have just read the google-translated version of the original article and the NDRC is fast-tracking the process to the point where they could have a decision by Wednesday!

rune
Member
5 years 20 days ago

ryan, the provincial branch of NDRC could have a decision by Wednesday. They will then have to submit it to NDRC in Peking which will have the final say.

I realize now that my wording was far from clear. Will try to edit the post a bit more.

ryanonsrc
Member
5 years 20 days ago

I just gave the google translation another look: I didn’t realize there were three levels of approval.

I sure hope they can fast track the national approval as well …

moose
Member
5 years 20 days ago

As mentioned above

But what I do know is that if there would be any more money coming from that direction Victor would have announced that long time ago. Please remember that Victor is not exactly shy of announcing larger amounts of money than there really is. Remember the “fully funded business plan” with investments of 1 billion euros which he telling to every media on the planet after the acquisition of Saab?

rune
Member
5 years 20 days ago

You’ve stated your point once, moose. We’ve all seen it.

Given the way e.g. Geely have dealt with Volvo (investing a huge chunk of cash) or Tata’s investment in Jaguar, it is not exactly unlikely that Saab’s partners will invest more money in the near future. They have already expressed interest in funding the development of future models, such as a smaller “9-1”.

But one thing at a time. Let us discuss current events rather than all the hundreds of possible outcomes.

JST1981
Member
5 years 20 days ago

The expected 245 million EUR are just the entrance fee for the Chinese partners. I’m quite sure that they are planning to expand their ownership. What makes me very confident is that the Chinese guys are already talking about new models and an expanded range. This shows that they know that a lot more money will be needed in the near future and I’m also sure that money is not an issue if there is a viable business plan. Maybe we will enter the post-VM era for Saab very soon.

Khrisdk
Member
5 years 20 days ago

I would say that it would be very bad business not being ready to pump in more money in a long term solution.
I don’t think that chinese are bad at business, and i don’t think that any NDRC would look favourably at spending €245 mill on nothing.

But of course this is only my own personal speculation

Pedro
Member
5 years 20 days ago

It’s the bait and VM bit it 😉

JST1981
Member
5 years 20 days ago

+1

bjornorn
Member
5 years 20 days ago

moose, why donät you get on the web sites of “other companies have been doing better job”. I can’t see thath you fill any function on a SAAB fan web site

ThomasJ
Member
5 years 20 days ago
If I remember right JAJ was confused already when BAIC made their own models of the current generation of the 9-3. Please explain in the appeal that confidence in the brand and the cars it self is locally damaged and exaggerated by swedish media. – List also sales forecasts for the other new markets, which Saab just started. – Explain the chinese big interest of the Saab ePower, which was stated in nyteknik.se, earlier this week. – Please also explain that the economial growth of a country is based on industrial development. There is a rather new book (a couple… Read more »
OddJob
Member
5 years 20 days ago

Our good friend Swade have some great arguments

ThomasJ
Member
5 years 19 days ago

Swade has always had great true arguments for Saab, file them in to the court.

Still for economical development, it’s based on industrial development and new innovations.
Saab Automobile have always been in the frontline for this.

belgian_roadster from Eupen, DG
Member
I think at the end SWAN will be 100% Chinese. Right now they do a smooth entrance to have on step in the company, and later they buy the hole thing. VM gets a big €€€-Thank you ticket …et voila. If it’s the way it goes (I really think so as the chinese don’t like to share), it’s a pity it hasn’t been done in a very quick way. All this up and down really blessed the brand. Each time there is news about SAAB the newspapers are falling on it like hungry wolfs and tourning everything into negatif. Really… Read more »
Chris_de_Ze
Member
5 years 20 days ago
The Monday’s appeal should be a good and convincing one, otherwise…. . If the Chinese have a real interest in Saab then this is the time to prove it, otherwise…. . So (in my humble opinion) what’s left right now is either one of the following: 1) The Chinese show no interest right now, no other investor shows up and Saab goes under. Either Saab stops to exist or the Chinese might wait for liquidation and buy whatever they need to continue building their own cars in China (under GM’s permission and agreement of course). We don’t know what the… Read more »
Dejjo
Member
5 years 20 days ago

Finally some good news……lets hope SAAB can hold out!

Iggy
Member
5 years 20 days ago

Today’s DI claims that Geely have already been in contact with SAAB management in order to express interest in some SAAB parts. The rumor says that they wanted the brand, spare parts production and service operations.

http://di.se/Artiklar/2011/9/10/244793/Geely-tar-sikte-pa-Saab/

Pedro
Member
5 years 20 days ago

Does not surprise me on bit. The brand is SAAB AB’s though, so it’snot with VM that they need to talk to regarding that.

OddJob
Member
5 years 19 days ago

Saab AB doesn’t allow the Saab brand name to be sold separately.

Pedro
Member
5 years 19 days ago

What constitutes the notion of “separately”?

Khrisdk
Member
5 years 19 days ago

I would imagine used for a car brand not associated with production i Sweden or swedish technology.

Pedro
Member
5 years 19 days ago

Well, one could look into buying Brand + Spare Parts + Service operations and build in Göteborg something using Volvo platforms… So “separately” can have many possible meanings;)

Khrisdk
Member
5 years 19 days ago

Maybe Jeff gives a better answer here

I am not sure that SAAB AB would like to take the risk.

Khrisdk
Member
5 years 19 days ago

Oh..I forgot
I think that your idea gives the Chinese even more motivation to keep Saab alive. At least the Pang Da/Youngman people.

And for added personal speculation and the value of entertainment, I think that both GM and BAIC is involved in many of the chinese proceedings, and that Youngman at some point will end up as a BAIC subdivision/Partner/JV.

OddJob
Member
5 years 19 days ago
It’s not legally possible to sell the rights to use the Saab car name, Saab AB (aircraft) owns the rights and Saab Automoblle has a license to use it for car business only . In Bankrupcy (god forbid) that license expires and there will not be produced any cars under the name of Saab. The immaterial value of the Saab (car) Brand name has taken more than 60 years to build. Despite the current situation it’s probably worth much more than the firm assets – factory, tooling,parts etc. Just imagine much time and money you would have to spend on… Read more »
Troels, Denmark
Member
5 years 20 days ago

Yes, Geely are interested in parts of Saab, IF they go bankrupt. Then we are back to what I expressed my fear for some days ago: That Volvo (read Geely) would buy Saab-facilities IF ….

zippy
Member
5 years 19 days ago

And for added personal speculation and the value of entertainment, I think that both GM and BAIC is involved in many of the chinese proceedings, and that Youngman at some point will end up as a BAIC subdivision/Partner/JV.

Wouldnt surprise me either. 😉

Troels, why would Geely want Saabs factory though?

ivo 71
Member
5 years 19 days ago

Because Volvo needs some more assembly facilities and THN is quite nearby and easy to adeapt to their requirements. But I thought they only wanted the parts business, the service and the brand IF Saab should enter bankruptcy. At least that’s what is being reported.

Ivo

v4ever
Guest
5 years 20 days ago
Yet another attempt to divide the Unions to stop them putting in a bankruptcy petition on Tuesday. Just like the “major European bank are on the brink of investing” story was at the begining of last week which they all fell for. (By the way, anyone heard from the Endeavor Group recently???) This statement won’t make any difference to the Re-Organistation appeal unless Muller has signed documents in triplicate to prove that approval has been granted. The same old story of the “money’s coming, the money’s coming,” just won’t wash anymore. I think that unless the Appeal Court, the Unions,… Read more »
OddJob
Member
5 years 20 days ago

Saabs future is here

Ruben NL
Member
5 years 20 days ago

So, if the provincial branche of NDRC were to approve by next wednesday, would it then take central authorities another month to reach a decision? And if that decision turns out positive, the first new Saab’s are produced early november?

How is Saab going to survive that? How will the distribution and retail network survive that?

This piece raises some questions, rather than providing answers, in my view.

Red J
Member
5 years 19 days ago

RubenNL,
Saab has been talking the whole time about bridge moneys to keep Saab alive till the Chinese money comes. But because of the current situation Saab needs the reconstruction procedure to be able to use received money in the best way to allow Saab to restart production. Today any cent that Saab receives from who ever will be seized by the Kronofogden agency.

ozrat
Member
5 years 20 days ago

I sincerely hope that the various levels of NDRC approval happen quickly enough to help save SAAB. Have to say – why is BAIC even an issue? They purchased tooling to make derivatives of SAAB models that had the designation ‘9-3’. But somehow there will be an interpretation that it gives them ongoing rights – surely not defendable in any way – even in China. Could be solved by solved by SAAB giving the first ‘Phoenix’ release a name other than 9-3 – which I understand is likely anyway.

BoeBoe
Member
5 years 20 days ago
There are no “local NRDC’s”. There are local and provincial RDC’s. There is only one NDRC and they are in Peking. This also explains why Pang Da & Yougman keep saying that no application has been filed with the NDRC. They can only do this when the provincial RDC gives them the go-ahead. So with a little luck they can file the application next week with the NDRC. Also don’t forget that the NDRC is 1 of 3 government agencies that have to approve the plans of Pang Da & Youngman. The other two are the Ministry of Commerce and… Read more »
KaiC
Member
5 years 19 days ago

+1

KarlR
Member
5 years 20 days ago

Moose, Strange I have a -08 9-3 and I love it!! Have compared it to several other brands and SAAB drives way better and much better plastic details! The only part I dont like is the door handles but I will swap them to Hirsch leather handles. 🙂

belgian_roadster from Eupen, DG
Member

simple question: Why is Saab US, Saab UK and Saab parts not concerned by the reorganisation?
Have these market already been given away as some kind of warranty for cash?

OddJob
Member
5 years 19 days ago

They are separate companies where only Saab Parts is held by the Swedish National Debt Office as guarantee for the EIB loan.

BoeBoe
Member
5 years 19 days ago

And Saab UK is pledged to Pang Da because of the 45 million euro they paid for cars. When Saab can’t deliver those cars Pang Da will be the owner of Saab UK.

BoeBoe
Member
5 years 19 days ago

PS And Saab UK is owned by Swedish Automobile NV and not by Saab Automobile AB.

BoeBoe
Member
5 years 19 days ago
– Saab Parts = profitable (28 million euro in H1 ’11) and used as collateral for the EIB loan – Saab UK = used as collateral for the fact that Pang Da paid 45 million for 1.500 cars But “Saab” has many other overseas subsidiaries which are also excluded such as: Saab Automobile Italy srl Saab Automobile Spain sl Ile de France Automobile etc etc etc… They only asked for the reorganisation of the following parts: – Saab Automobile AB – Saab Automobile Powertrain AB – Saab Automobile Tools AB Other parts are not included in the reorganisation. But those… Read more »
Pedro
Member
5 years 19 days ago

Thanks for the info and the link 🙂

Pedro
Member
5 years 19 days ago

What’s that company Goldcup 6747 AB, by the way?…

BoeBoe
Member
5 years 19 days ago

I guess that is the new (proposed) JV between Saab and Youngman for the development of three new models. But this is something for the far away future.

Red J
Member
5 years 19 days ago

Boe,
if you always could be this way!!

SteveW
Member
5 years 19 days ago

+1 A series of surprisingly excellent posts from Boe, keep them coming.

saabluster
Member
5 years 19 days ago

Agree with RedJ. Your contributions have been just that. Contributions. This BoeBoe is much more pleasant to be around. Thanks

belgian_roadster from Eupen, DG
Member

Thanks!

spacy
Guest
5 years 19 days ago
. Can I point out one thing, Next week’s application by Saab to the Higher appeal court, is not the appeal against the decision of last week of the lower distract Court. The application is for ‘permission to appeal’. If this is granted, then Saab will then have to appeal the Lower Court’s decision. The ‘permission to appeal’ is in a way, more important than the appeal itself, as Saab must convince a Judge, that they have ‘new evidence’ that the lower Court did not have, that changes the position. If there is not ‘new’ and Substantial evidence, then Saab… Read more »
KarlR
Member
5 years 19 days ago

Moose, Whats better on the A4 vs 9-3? I totally disagree! A4 is way more plastic feeling and not as fun on the road!

You cant say that 9-3 was old 2008, For real!! It was 5 years old then and thats not old!!

Next time I think a Dacia suites you better.

rune
Member
5 years 19 days ago

Audis, at least the A3, even tend to have plastic gas pedals that snaps off when it gets cold. (http://blogg.aftonbladet.se/robertcollin/2010/03/svar-pa-tal-fran-audi-om-du-trampar-sonder-gaspedalen)

The grass is not always greener on the other side.

Chris Carrier
Member
5 years 19 days ago

A4’s are like Honda Accords these days, everywhere. I happily pull up next to one in my V6 Aero, and pull away ahead of them, always.

RS
Member
5 years 19 days ago

The V6 should have been put back immediately after Saabs Independence.

James
Member
5 years 19 days ago
Most of this stuff is personal opinion, even at the repair level (is it more bothersome to put an Audi into “service mode” or work deep under the hood in the 9-3 Aero?)… That said, I do get at what Moose is saying (I’ve heard it a lot) – not so much that there is anything wrong with the 9-3, but more that the competition is catching up (or to some who don’t see the subtleties, “has caught up”). In the late 90’s Saab was still one of few (mostly Euro) manufacturers using small turbocharged engines. Nowadays, just about everything… Read more »
KarlR
Member
5 years 18 days ago

James, Sorry to say but you are completly wrong!! I sell both Hyundai and SAAB and you must be crazy comparing the two of them! Hyundai is a good car but nowhere near SAAB in quality and driving ability.

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