Todays Press-conference Video
September 8, 2011 in News
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SaabClubAlaska said on September 8, 2011
GRRR! SIT DOWN! I want to reach through my screen and smack those damn photographers.
Audun said on September 8, 2011
I wish them the best luck with the appeal. I don’t tink the court was fair towards Saab.
Motoradd\'s Cat said on September 8, 2011
Fighting talk from a very tired looking Victor Muller.
Don’t Stop Believing.
Lundin said on September 8, 2011
No matter what,V Muller has done two great interviews in the last two days. I really like this way. You can blame him for much,but this is very much honest.He dont talk bad or judge anyone that wants to file for bancruptcy or anything,he only really wants the best for saab.
I can only imagine his frustration after endless of meetings with the chinese just to hear that no one belives in it (the court).Please do the appeal complete!! Thanks.
Audun said on September 8, 2011
+1
DUTCH900C said on September 8, 2011
+ another 1
kochje said on September 8, 2011
+ another 1.
This court must be totally against employement in their own country. Never seen such a decision.
quickening said on September 8, 2011
I think the court just sees Saabs completely reliance on the Chinese and don’t see a viable plan.
Lundin said on September 8, 2011
Agree,there seems to be a need of a path after the reorganisatio aswell. So they need to give Mr Pang more space to explain!
OliverH said on September 8, 2011
The filing was made since weeks and should be double proofed. The court needs only one day to say no? There two possibilities:
1) the filing was crap and not worth the paper printed on
2) the was political pressure to reject it
As this is a standard process it’s possible to sort out 1) is not true. But if so…
Lundin said on September 8, 2011
I think we can rule out no2. Even though the judges MAY have listen to this Åbjörnsson wich claims a “yes” in court would have been a illegal action.Remember that Åbjörnsson is still somewhat angry that Saab chosed Guy Lofalk,he cant get over it so it seems.
We need to trust the system and the gov,otherwise we can stop beliving in a industrial nation all together.
I have read the filing,it wasn’t THAT good, it wasn’t “bulletproof” so to speak. But i have made some filings for R&D projects. It is extremly hard in some sentence to convince a jury without full know-how in your industry.Also you are living in it so everything seems very natuaral to you.
I actually belive Saab should look into the Enginering department to find people that has filed R&D projects to the gov previoulsy. There is “a certain way” to do it.
But i am convinced Saab will make the appeal complete!
sportwagon28t said on September 8, 2011
noooo its not plan ‘d’ that will work its plan ‘n’
thats the one – plan m or maybe plan n
lets wait for that one
oh whatever
martinsaab said on September 8, 2011
Two days ago, the end of the iconic German luxury car maker “Borgward” had it’s 50th anniversary.
Let’s hope things end up better for Saab.
(If you do not know Borward, do a g**gle picture search for “Borgward Isabella”)
scmit02 said on September 8, 2011
For a good appeal it sounds like details of the deals, and where they stand with the Chinese goverment will have to be clarified.
My question now though is this. If the Chinese were to enter into a partial ownership of Saab while production is 0, why not use the same level of $ and buy all of Saab in bankruptcy? They would gain full control, have all the R&D, etc.
I don’t want to think this is the case, but I wonder if plans A thru D have all been Saab running through the motions to get to an unobstructed Chinese buyout.
ivo 71 said on September 8, 2011
Because
1. they would lose the rights to the Saab name as those will revert to Saab AB, the aircraft and defense company which is a totally separate corporate entity and shares nothing with Saab Automobile except a part of the name
and
2. in case of bankruptcy the licence to use GM intellectual properties would become void as the entity it was granted to (Saab Automobile) would no longer exist.
The Chinese want the Saab brand and the Saab cars rolling off the line in Trolhättan. Without the brand rights and the IP licence they can’t build Saab cars with the Saab logo on them. They would then just be buying a factory complex with an inactive assembly line (which they don’t need if they can’t build cars in it) and some R&D that is very interesting, perhaps even revolutionary but not quite enough to justify the transaction. Apart from that, the Chinese authorities will never approve the deal if the whole brand doesn’t come with it.
Ivo
Khrisdk said on September 8, 2011
Thanks
I needed to hear someone say that again.
It somehow always seems to be forgotten
ivo 71 said on September 8, 2011
Happy to oblige, my friend.
Ivo
Iggy said on September 8, 2011
@Ivo 71: I don’t think these two are so crucial for Chinese to not wait for bankruptcy and here are my reasons:
1. SAAB name is big in Scandinawia, UK, US and possibly few other western countries. But in China? SAAB is almost unknown there. Why can’t they start a new executive/luxury brand e.g. “SWAN”. Isn’t that a good name? Just joking here and I am absolutely against SAAB to stop existing as a car brand, but don’t think that just the brand is so important to them. On th eother side everything can be sold and has its price, why not this brand?
2. This might be a bit tougher but also the intellectual properties have its price. What we were talking few months ago that GM wanted 800 USD (if I remember correctly) for to get rid of the preference shares. Almost sure that they would be happy for half of the price, plus some agreement production-Youngman, distribution-Pang Da.
I am just speculating here but I want to say that we should stop fooling ourselves that Chinese will prevent SAAB going bust and not picking up the pieces because of the brand that mean everything to us a couple of nerds, but nothing to most of the people in the world.
Khrisdk said on September 8, 2011
Without the Saab brand there is nothing except a semifinished platform and some production equipment.
The GM IP will probably be kept for SAIC in China, and the rest is JV with different 3. parties who will do a lot to keep their IP.
ivo 71 said on September 9, 2011
@ Iggy:
Two more arguments then:
- the Chinese automotive market is a bit different from ours. The wealthy Chinese all want to drive a big fast luxury car and are willing to pay through the nose to be able to do it. But it must be a western premium brand of car that is preferably not made in China because they consider using Chinese-made products socially unacceptable. It’s the pinnacle of snobism but also quite understandable, given China’s recent history. I read somewhere that BMW and Mercedes sell German-built top-of-the-line cars to the seriously rich Chinese for ridiculous amounts of money (have to, too, given the import taxes there; it’s also a proof of top social status for a Chinese to be able to afford that) and also build exactly the same cars in China itself to sell at a much lower price to the less socially elevated -but still not poor- Chinese and other Asians. That is what imho makes it crucial for Chinese investors to acquire the brand name as well. Loosing the right to its own name probably would make Saab more or less worthless for them because they then wouldn’t be able to use the top car selling gimmick: a renowned brand name from western Europe. I also believe that Pang Da’s ordering 1200 cars and paying them up front illustrates how much they want Saab. Chinese busenessmen are no philantropes and the surety they got, Saab UK, is probably a sham since an importer of a non-existent brand isn’t worth a lot as far as I can see.
- if Saab enters bankruptcy then the Chinese cannot be sure to become the next outright owners of the brand and the facilities, even if they could acquire the IP rights from GM. Which I seriously doubt as GM tends to be rather paranoid about Chinese and Russians getting hold of their technology. Someone else may well outbid them or maybe they wouldn’t be treated fairly if a credible western or even Swedish bidder shows up. And I think they really, really want Saab because it is the last European premium brand that is for sale. All other luxury brands are owned by large conglomerates not interested in selling.
Ivo
martinsaab said on September 8, 2011
I like this one (14:10):
“…I am unfortunately not a specialist. I will be soon, I guess”
This guy is what I call a fighter!
belgian_roadster from Eupen, DG said on September 8, 2011
Guess he has SAAB DNA
zippy said on September 8, 2011
Im afraid I am no longer seeing things thru my rose coloured glasses. Wasn’t the 50% sale of the factory supposed to get us thru tough times? It didn’t. Now Saab has to struggle to even pay its employees. There is no way on earth NDRC is going to allow Pang Da et al invest a sngle penny in a bankrupt Saab. It will take US$1billion to get Saab back into production and market itself back into public psyche. I really can’t take anymore. I have one question though. How much does VM take away from this?
Khrisdk said on September 8, 2011
I would never try to forsee chines business thinking.
The last question I think you should put to VM.
A lot of people in her will come with a lot of different calculations with very different results if asked.
One thing he will take away is a lot of experiences
Iggy said on September 8, 2011
@Khrisdk: For some reason I couldn’t reply to your reply to my post above, so I am doing it here: SAAB is much more that that: SAAB is also state-of-the-art factory plus top engineering facility who can finish that semi-platform and construct a lot of decent cars for Chinese and not only Chinese market.. I guess that the factory space owner (the one that has51% of the factory) is desperate to get someone to stat the car production. Otherwise they will probably have empty house on land that is worth nothing in Trollhattan without a car factory.
I am not familiar with the IP’s but sorry if I don’t see that as a problem. SAAB/SWAN (my new hypothetical name) finishes the platform, buys some engines from either BMW or someone else (why not GM again) and here they go.
Here I am not trying to say that the Chinese want bankruptcy and will not move afinger to save SAAB. I am trying to say that before NDRC approval they can not do much, so they are probably considering the other option.
Lundin said on September 8, 2011
Zippy,i think you have been around since the very first start of TS or SU. Please,dont go that route until Saab says “it’s over”.You are certainly a Saab VIP like many of the people in here and certainly deserves to bee.I can only hope Saab can offer more to you guys in the future.
Saab owe me alot of money and i have been working for them (as stupid as one might bee?=)) even to this day.God knows i have sacrificed a “safe” career at Volvo. But please The last thing we need now is our own people to stop believe in this.But like i said in another thread,its is ok to be sad today. Tomorrow we look for a more robust and “constructive” solution on the appeal.
Red J said on September 8, 2011
Lundin, thank you !!!!!
Lundin said on September 8, 2011
Thank you Red,it’s my pleasure
Standing at the side of a laser red 9-5 SC in a empty factory or on a parking lot your head go spinning like crazy: “unsalable (very different from non-salable phase cars..=)),this?? No Way!”.Bear with the direct importers and give them time and finance,the cars WILL sell.
zippy said on September 8, 2011
Lundin, you brought a smile to my face for the first time today. Thanks.
RS said on September 8, 2011
I agree. The 9-5 SC must come out one way or the other.
When people say what’s so special about Saab I usually say the following: Why buy a car you feel uncomfortable in after 100 km if you’re going to spend thousands of hours driving it it?
In the price range I’m willing to pay for a car there is only one that can do the job properly and that is SAAB.
When people claim Saabs are just a rebadged GM vehicles they really don’t know what the hell their talking about.
ANA said on September 8, 2011
Yes Lundin, thank you!
Francisco said on September 8, 2011
If Saabs closes can I buy a Saab SC??
aop said on September 8, 2011
I still believe Victor has something in his hat. I just can’t believe that the 8 pages application he submitted to the court was all they can do. So I tend to think it was somehow intentional ?
Patrik B said on September 8, 2011
The application was just a way of protecting Saab during negotiations with parties that will/may provide new capital.
Probably they don’t want to reveal all the details about the deal until it is finalized. The thing I have a hard time figuring out is how Saab are supposed to move on after the reorganization.
GerritN said on September 8, 2011
No, the reconstruction petition was just a way to stave off the bankruptcy request that surely would have come from the workers union or the parts suppliers. Negotiations, imho, are not really ongoing. Pang-Da and Youngman need the approval of the Chinese government, not much to negotiate there.
And yes, the big question is what the business plan after reconstruction (or after the Chinese cash injection for that matter) would have looked like. This is not clear from the reconstruction filing.
Patrik B said on September 8, 2011
Saab can never get a reconstruction approved with only 40 million SEK in the bank. They need that ~2.5 billion SEK investement from Pang Da and Youngman to even get into the reconstruction.
Right now I can’t really see how they will be able pull this off considering the time plan. And if the application to the NDRC aren’t submitted (which we know nothing about) then we/Saab are so scre***…
Patrik B said on September 8, 2011
What about the deal that made TimR smile a few weeks back? I guess that VM and Pang Da/Youngman have fantastic plans for the future. I hope that it wasn’t a visionary dream that made TimR smile. Can the negotiations with NDRC have come further than we know? Or what else can it be?
TimR – ENLIGHTEN US!
Lundin said on September 8, 2011
Guys, for what is worth i have heard a timetable for NDRC process,but i hope you understand that in respect to Victor and the process going right now i hope he is the one that shows the court that we are talking short-term solutions here. Also please add more on the process that it requires when Trollhättan Plant is responsible of THREE new vehicles.People,that is massive.
Also i think court gets lost in all figures. Looking back at Volvo it wasn’t that long ago the numbers was red and then some (for one quarter). One might speculate about the Ford reports,but the fact that the automotive industry can rapidly change is somewhat lost in court i guess.
Victor also made it clear that any other investor feel more comfortable to invest in Saab in a more stable enviroment, and make sense to me. I hope he can ping point more of those investors that sees a intrest in a more stable enviroment.
Cokeisit said on September 8, 2011
Please, get the deal done so we can move on. Move our mind
Are there not any djup strupe about who might be involved in the deal? There must have been a lot of business people sneaking around the factory if a deal is to be finalized.
Doctor Donk said on September 8, 2011
I hope 9-4x will come soon to Europe/Russia so i will be able to buy it instead 9-5 to support brand.
FB said on September 8, 2011
I wonder if they have been in contact with PangDa ande Youngman…..and what they have to say about this…….
jond said on September 8, 2011
Surely the Court can only rule based on what is either to hand or certain in the future? Saab is heavily loss-making and the management do not seem to have a credible new business plan that involves major reorganization to meet the much reduced market. The Chinese investment is equally uncertain both as to timing, whether it will be forthcoming at all and whether or not the amount proposed will be adequate. How could the Court possibly rule other than ‘no’? Appealing the judgement will almost certainly be a waste of time unless circumstances change in a very specific way. And if lightning were to strike and the Court were to change its mind on appeal it would most likely in any case only prolong the agony.
RS said on September 9, 2011
The question is would Saab be a heavily loss making entity at this point if VA would have been allowed to invest in April?
Sales was slow in 2010 much due to the fact that people where waiting for some upgrades to both the 9-3 and 9-5. Remember the hurry to push for MY11.5?
With so many cars on the order book since May. Saab could actually have had a very good summer with the 9-3 Griffin, 9-4X and 9-5 SC finally rolling out. Confidence in Saab was clearly rising after the Phoenix launch.
rcase13 said on September 9, 2011
If Jan-Ake had stayed on I think we would have seen a different outcome. I’d give almost anything to know what Jan-Ake is thinking right now. I can’t help but speculate that JAJ didn’t like what VM was doing with Saab. We probably will never know. A couple of years from now when Saab is a distant memory maybe JAJ will come forward and tell the story that so many people want to hear. What really happened? I doubt very many on this board believe the “I’m tired” story.
It’s all speculation but i can’t help but think VM is not a good CEO. I read the reorganization proposal and I have to say the level of detail is very poor. This is something a good CEO could have churned out in his sleep. I just can’t stand the feeling I have. Don’t get me wrong we needed VM and he did great things. But day to day dealings are not his strong points. He should have been the visionary out there getting investors and JAJ should have been running things at home. I just don’t think VM was willing to give JAJ enough power to get the job done. I get the impression that VM micro managed JAJ out the door.
All of this is speculation and just IMHO. I appreciate all that VM did and think he is an awesome business man with great tenacity. I just think he needed an awesome CEO by his side. JAJ in my opinion was that man. Also I can’t help but think the Swedish government would have been more lenient with a Swedish CEO on-board.
Nikola said on September 9, 2011
ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ. Great! We have like 23 more plans before SAAB is really dead. Did VM realize he sounds pathetic? I don’t think there is another rabbit, all previous rabbits turned out to be bluff. JAJ quit because he saw it coming. Remeber VM’s words about first production stop – “minor glitch”. That was kinda not true. And VM knew it. He promised it will never happen again. It did right away. I know all busenessman , well let’s say not lie, but kinda cover up the real deal. Sorry I don’t trust him any more. I really want SAAB alive or I loose my job. But I don’t see how they can make it when government wants SAAB out and CEO is a incompetent. He pulled a great one finalizing purchase from GM but after that…