*UPDATE* Good news! Lawyer Rolf Åbjörnsson & Minister Annie Lööf speaks to Swedish Radio
December 19, 2011 in News
Rolf Åbjörnsson says he has been approached by several interested parties. This has been told both to Swedish Government and the Saab Unions in Trollhättan. He could not say who the interested parties where. He sounded sincere and reasonable. Sounds like he will enter the stage when the bankruptcy has been properly filed and handled by the district court.
In my ears it sounded promising.
Keep calm and carry on! It is not completely over yet just new people…..
At 17:35 Annie Lööf on Swedish Radio confirms that there are interested parties who want to come into discussions with the people that will run the bankruptcy organization.
UPDATE* Rolf Åbjörnsson will most likely appear in the TV4 Morning Show. I had an interesting talk with him tonight. Guess he is now free to speak since the District Court in Vänersborg has filed and stamped the papers tonight. My guess is that we could very well have some breaking news tomorrow. Who are the present constellations with interest in Saab?
kimvette said on December 19, 2011
I really doubt GM will approve any deal which would save SAAB.
mo said on December 19, 2011
Unfortunately I believe the same thing, but I’m not sure about what bankruptcy changes as a matter of law.
Niklas G said on December 19, 2011
Considering how much money Youngman was prepared to pay for a joint venture with Saab, and with legal firewalls + GM keeping them away from anything GM, If they (and anyone else interested) get a new chance to buy non-GM parts of Saab with no strings attached, no debts, no GM or EIB killing every new business opportunity that appears, then why shouldn’t not someone see a good business opportunity there? A Chinese company buying everything not GM, spending whatever needed for completing a Phoenix platform, NG 9-3, and/or 9-5 with no GM inside, perhaps even offering to keep the factory and production for the Europeean and US market in Trollhättan as a “payment” for getting allowed to use the Saab brand name as long as production in Trollhättan remains?
Or a non-Chinese company that think they can make an agreement with GM to keep IP agreemens for current 9-5 and 9-4X. (Perhaps less likely though that GM would dare agreeing with anyone on anything that makes it possible for the 9-5 to compete with GM-cars on any market?)
Sab has still never been even close to being independent, with EIB or GM killing almost every really important deal around. With those two straitjackets removed by the bancrupcy, perhaps the remaining independent parts of Saab could be interesting for someone with enough money to invest what is needed to replace GM parts or whatever magic powers needed to get an agreement with GM on continuing IP sharing with them?
Quixcube said on December 19, 2011
The only “good news” I can imagine coming out of this is that the current models are not likely to ever be produced again. And that is “good” only because it means that if anything ever happens at Saab again, it will be entirely focused on new 100% Saab models. A mighty big “if” but that’s just how it goes sometimes I guess.
On a separate note, I am truly sorry for everyone who will be out of work regardless of what happens next
God bless you all and the best of luck to everyone.
Niklas G said on December 19, 2011
Parts of Saab Automobile surviving is still a lot better than all of Saab Automobile being dead and buried. It certainly would be a big shame if the NG 9-5 is killed here, but if it is, most people here would probably still do anything to save everything that possibluy can be saved from this bancruptcy.
A big tragedy for all the employees though. loosing their jobs probably takes most of the fun away from finally getting their November and December salaries.
mattlach said on December 20, 2011
I see where you are coming from, but let me just say this.
I am the happy owner of a 2011 9-5 Turbo 4 Premium (6 spd manual, technical package). I upgraded from my 2004 Aero last June because it was starting to feel a little tired and creaky with lots of milage on it, because I couldn’t see myself driving any other brand of car currently out there, because I felt Saab needed some support in its hard times and because I could.
This thing surprises me every day in how great a vehicle it is. it is both more forgiving over the bumps, AND has better more neutral handling than my old Aero, and that’s even without the drivesense system fitted.
It may contain some GM technology, but it is a very good car. If Saab survives this (unlikely) and they are unable to use the new 9-5, it will be a great loss.
I was running late for a ferry this weekend, and was rushing down the highway a little faster than usual. Looked down and scared the crap out of myself. I was going 120mph (~195km/h). I had no idea. The car was so smooth, quiet, sturdy and stuck to the road, that I though I was going closer to 70mph (~110km/h) and everyone else was just driving slowly.
(For the record, I don’t make a habit of driving that fast, it just accidentally happened)
As I said, even after owning it for 6 months, it surprises me every day. It’s a damned fine car, and if for no other reason the good people at Saab should be damned proud of what they were able to accomplish in spite of GM, not because of GM.
I am sad to see Saab go. I am not going to write them off quite yet though. This reminds me of a similar dark time in December 2009 (two years and one day ago) when I logged on to Saabs United and read “Saab to be Wound Down”. I’m not fooling myself. It looks bleak, and chances are it is the end, but for some reason this great little brand just seems to wind up doing the impossble. Let’s hope that happens again.
Also, when the Youngman deal was first announced, I couldn’t help but think to myself that maybe the brand would be better off dead than under Chinese control. If they wind up surviving, then this will have been a blessing in disguise,
saabista63 said on December 19, 2011
Nine lives? Or is it ten?
It is hard to believe there is still another possibility – but well, let’s see what they are heading for.
And then, it’s still just Monday. There are four more days till Christmas Eve.
AngryEngineer said on December 19, 2011
Are the interested parties interested in starting up production of Saabs or…?
Greg Abbott said on December 19, 2011
Let’s hope these interested parties move quickly. At this late point Saab’s remaining life as a viable business is measured in days, if not hours.
scmit02 said on December 19, 2011
This wouldn’t be a GM approval situation. I don’t know Swedish law, but I think all contracts become null and would have to be renegotiated.
Personal feeling is any interested party would be interested in Phoenix, the new 9-3 and some of the new, GM free tech, oh and the plant/distribution network. This party, again purely my opinion, would have to be a car company that could replace GM tech with their own. Perhaps BMW could get GM to agree to licensing, since they are partnering in some aspects already.
saabyurk said on December 19, 2011
I would be fine with someone continuing with just the Phoenix, GM-free. But, I wonder if there would be a way to keep the dealership network at least partially alive in the meantime?
terry9000k said on December 19, 2011
If Pang da have a title/charge to Saab GB, then they are not moving to quick to say so.
Now Saab has gone this route it can be only weeks before the GB arm is wound down too.
meg haviland said on December 19, 2011
Keeping fingers crossed! You go Rolf!! Time to get GM to approve whatever is in the pipeline. Don’t they realize that it’s also their reputation on the line??? What about their lack of holding up to their end supplying parts for the pre-deal on 09 Saabs and back….competition is a good thing. Without it there’s no reason to improve, but to fall back into mediocrity. That’s what put them into having the US bail them out….
Thinks about it GM, RELEASE SAAB.
Griffin up. My thoughts and prayers go out to those in TH and their families in these trying times. VM up!!
GerritN said on December 19, 2011
I don’t think that GM cares at all what happens to Saab. They have written off their investment 2 years ago already, the only reason for their continuing involvement with Saab was to make sure that their IP and market share was protected. GM just doesn’t want to be bothered with Saab again, they want to make a zero time investment and the easiest way to accomplish this is to say no to everything that Saab can come up with.
Am I surprised, No! Am I angry with GM, No, what’s the point? Will I buy a GM product in the future, very unlikely considering the way they operate!
kochje said on December 19, 2011
you are so right,GerritN
simonswisssaab said on December 19, 2011
Somebody or somebodies will pick up Saab for £1.00. We will learn very soon. Saab a new beginning – Yes!
Peter Gilbert said on December 19, 2011
I’ll gladly pay $20!
Radu said on December 19, 2011
Let’s wait! It is not over yet! Not until anyone sais no Saab will further be produced! Perhaps now is time to go to new platform and forget about GM! My feeling is that this is done intentionally to get rid of GM who might loose interest in the licenses – they will not be worth anything in the near future! Who knows who comes across the corner!
DanSaab said on December 19, 2011
+++1
CSD_ChineseSaabDriver said on December 19, 2011
“My feeling is that this is done intentionally to get rid of GM who might loose interest in the licenses – they will not be worth anything in the near future! Who knows who comes across the corner!”
Exactly my feeling too, I suspect this bankruptcy is just a complot of Swe.Gov (GL) to get VM down, then restart Saab, they also care about all those direct and indirect jobs.
FRANCIS GREENSIDES said on December 19, 2011
Radu I hope that you are right that “this is done intentionally to get rid of GM” They are acting like spoilt american brats, they are “Gutless Morons,” better off without such a big company. It is so sad that they feel such a big threat by such a small company. Is is because that the tech that they are so strongly guarding was created by SAAB anyway. Are they scared of the best SAAB cars being created again, starting with the Spyker Scania Phoenix platform scalable from 9-1 all the way to 9-7? All their reactions suggest so, I hope they can get something sorted out, in the meantime I will continue saving for my 9-2 by keeping my 22 year old golf running. The Scania Saab 900 used to do 400K miles, well that is 4 lifetimes according to GM.
davidgmills said on December 19, 2011
Wait till all the Swedish car companies are owned by the Chinese. I wonder how many Volvo parts are now being made by the Chinese. At least GM allowed Saab to use European parts.
The Chinese just want to sell their products made in China to Europe. If the Chinese have to put a European name on it so the car will sell, if they can make the car with 80% Chinese parts, they don’t care. Here in America we have all kinds of products with European or American sounding names that are made in China. Most of our products are now made in China but you would never know it from the names of the companies.
A Youngman Saab would be exactly that in about three years even if produced in Trollhatten.
Niklas G said on December 19, 2011
This is also what VM & Guys said in that recorded telephone call here at SU. VM said that the Swedish law, contrary to the law in other countries he knew of, allows companies that are in bankrupcy to be revived and that there were a number of parties who had shown interest in continuing Saab through a bankruptcy. Then another guy at Saab filled in that, as he had understood the Swedish bancrupcy laws, the new administrator’s first priority in any bankrupcy case will ALWAYS be to seek a buyer for the whole entity rather than to sell out the assets in bits and pieces.
So my thoughts on this sad story is that IF Saab is sold out in bits and pieces, then we can always resort to mourning and blame games after that (all of which won’t make any difference for Saab), but as long as that has not happened, there must be something more positive and constructive that we cand spend our energy on. Ways to show our support for, or perhaps even help the Phoenix platform, IQon, NG 9-3 and more (the more the better) to to rise from the ashes and see the light of day. After all, we’re talking Saab here! If there is any company around that should find a way to use the legal opportunity to get back from being declared dead, then it is Saab. Especially with all the new products waitning in the development pipeline.
So, ideas anyone? Anything we can do to help saving what can be saved or at least supporting people who can? The patient is on life support but not dead yet.
hilmar said on December 19, 2011
Well, wait and see … the game of chess isn´t over yet.
Radu said on December 19, 2011
I think is the right moment to get rid of GM! Tough but good moment! Let’s not forhet there are still great people in Trollhathan that know how to build cars! Keep calm and carry on!
Peter, Sweden said on December 19, 2011
This really is good and exciting news, but one can wonder why these companies wants to talk about these things now — their money could’ve come to good use earlier on.
Bravada from GMI said on December 19, 2011
I do believe there are always many interested parties when a bunch of assets are to be sold for pennies, but this doesn’t always mean any of those parties are interested in restarting Saab.
On the one hand, restarting Saab without the debt burden and all the obligations, by simply buying out selected assets, would open up options Saab didn’t have before. On the other, this is buying a car company that essentially has no product to build for the coming two or more years.
I believe it is more about parties interested in selected assets for their particular interests. For example, a stake in eAAM can be worth quite a bit.
Pedro said on December 20, 2011
Yep, agreed.
Peter, Sweden said on December 19, 2011
What if all people who like Saab at Facebook would invest €1000 in Saab? It’d be a nice start, and would also give Saab amazing PR. And there is no any other company better suited to be owned by its own fan community
I’m in!
Swizzy said on December 19, 2011
Me too!!!
Nicolas said on December 19, 2011
Is such idea a possibility? I was considering he sdame thing but as SU told me before Saab will not accept money from gifts.
I really would donate, but we need a hell of a lot of people waning to invest/donate.
Crazy idea?
lilla said on December 19, 2011
I like crazy ideas! If it helps, we should do it..
Marque said on December 19, 2011
Would need to do something similar I guess. Although, I’m not on facebook and I think, by €100 a much broader pubilc can be addressed. However, to raise a sum of eg. €100m, we would still need 1million people to contribute. I think to rake up that amount of people that actually pay, it would be an enormous job to do.
In 2009, the Germany-based assiciation, Rescue Saab could gather less than 20,000 people to sign their petition during a reasonable timeframe. According to them, there were 1.5million Saabs owned around the globe.
But still I support the idea that something’s gotta be done about it now.
We can’t get every second Saab driver to pay the cash in, I’m afraid
meg haviland said on December 19, 2011
Said the same thing on the blog of the 9-4x auction from WGBH.
I’m in!!
kochje said on December 19, 2011
I did already the investment a while ago in SWAN; did all Saab addicts follow; no, not at all.
So this is not a serious attempt to save our beloved branche.
Trued said on December 20, 2011
Remember the only way to save a company is to buy their PRESENT products. This goes for SAAB. Run to Your nearest dealer and buy a Saab that could very well save your dealership and the salespersons work. A good friend of mine is picking up his NG 9-5 tomorrow at Svenska Bil here in Stockholm. I did the same some months ago. You guys should do it as well. Customers are needed NOW!
You get a super car with almost “secret” GM IP stuff.
saabdog said on December 19, 2011
I think this is the moment a number of interested parties have been waiting for. Bankruptcy gives them the opportunity to pick up Saab cheaply with little or no strings attached to GM. Also wouldn’t be surprised to see a new suitor emerge very soon.
Chris Hansel said on December 19, 2011
I never doubted it for a minute. Someone would want that brand name with as many world-wide followers. As VM said in his Tim interview however, half a million Euros to re-start. I don’t see anyone going that route. I think the other poster is right, all agreements with GM are now in legal limbo until the Swedesh governement, via the courts, mades a determination.
Bravada from GMI said on December 19, 2011
I believe with a very fast-track approach, a current-9-3-based vehicle (Phoenix-based if you please) could perhaps be launched within 18 months of injection of significant funds.
Trying to keep the entire organism from decomposing until then would require paramount determination and rather massive funding, but I could still see it as possible, given how MGs are being assembled in Longbridge so many years after the Rover collapse.
I only wonder whether Rachel Pang has given up definitely.
Saabissimo said on December 19, 2011
Rolf Abjornsson has been circling around the wounded griffin many months waiting for it to finally fall, all the time publicly pushing for bankruptcy as the best solution and taunting his old foe Lofalk and his reorganisation efforts.
So I’m not surprised he is popping up in media again today.
aop said on December 19, 2011
exactly , he was preaching the bankruptcy solution for Saab form months now.
He’s just trying to make a buck out of Saab bankruptcy , I wouldn’t put too much trust in it.
Trued said on December 19, 2011
aop, hold your horses. Rolf is a highly respected an reputable man of law. He likes Saab so there is nothing to worry about. Guess he could be very helpful in helping Saab.
Baver said on December 20, 2011
Certainly could use some good news….
jond said on December 19, 2011
The bankruptcy should mean that the Company can be sold by the receivers as a going concern completely free of all debts and other obligations. That is bad news for the suppliers, who are owed money, and SweGov, SWAN and GM. The problem appears on the surface to have been GM’s intransigence, but actually is really down to the huge losses built up over the last two years, which had left crippling debts to be covered by any buyer of the Company. Now these latter can acquire the Company and be free of those debts and minority interests and that is why buyers are emerging from the woodwork. They have been awaiting this (inevitable) moment.
And they could try to renegotiate the IP licenses with GM, but why bother? It would take a couple of years at least for production based on their technology to become profitable and by that time it would be completely outdated and the new Phoenix technology would have taken over. Perhaps the plant could make windmills or something for a couple of years until the first of a new range of cars is ready for launch. That should satisfy nearly everyone! The dealers will very unfortunately have to make do with the second-hand market and servicing for the time being.
And I don’t think that the Chinese are out of the picture yet. YM have now done comprehensive due diligence given Rachel Pang’s visit and PD will own Saab GB. But they will have to act quickly to fend off the competition.
quickbird said on December 19, 2011
From a Chinese news, it seems YM is very happy with what it get. YM get the Phoenix platform technology and set up the company “SaabAutomobile Development AB”. They said they would continuous inject money to SaabAutomobile Development AB for the development of 91 to 97 model. They didn’t mention they would buy Saab as a whole, but they did interest in Saab Powertrain and Saab R&D center…
DanSaab said on December 19, 2011
SAAB UP!
Griffin UP!
scmit02 said on December 19, 2011
I think at this point you are getting an existing company with R&D, employees (not all will stay though the process), operations, etc for a discounted price that could be less than starting from scratch.
jond said on December 19, 2011
And an international brand. Even if they don’t get to use the Saab name, everyone will know that the cars they start to produce are true Saabs.
belgian_roadster from Eupen, DG said on December 19, 2011
Has anyone ever thought of this being VM latest plan? VM tried and tried to find a solution without hurting the brand name with a bankrupcy fill. He wanted to do it in a smooth way, like Volvo, Ford and Geely. But all efforts were pulled down by GM. So no other way than bankrupcy.
Everyone is learning about this particular swedisch law now, and if it’s true that all binding contracts, debts, EIB etc etc are canceled, then SAAB is a free company….of course, a company that can no more produce cars, because they do not have the rights (IP) to do so. But other companies rather then GM are probably interested in selling their IP to SAAB.
It will probably take 1-2 years, before GM free Saab will run in the production line again. If the dealerships around the world are able to continue with a perfect after sales (parts, upgrades, tech info, all available) then the Saab community will not shrink to zero and we can fly again (for as long as Saab remains Swedish and production in TH)
aop said on December 19, 2011
VM is not done yet !
I guess we will be back on the upper rollercoaster ride before Christmas.
Saab Up!
scand said on December 19, 2011
He, and swans contribution to Saab are legally done as of when the court accepted the bankruptcy petition.
The current “CEO” , such as it is , is the administrator .
Richard said on December 19, 2011
This was my thought as well. This is VM’s backup plan B, or is it C? It is obviously not the best option, but the last option that allows Saab to be released from debt (assuming the conjecture here is the legal truth in Sweden) and that any IP agreements with GM are either re-negotiable, null and void, or not a concern if Saab restarts production in the future with their new platform. VM is nothing if not methodical about contingencies.
It sounds like the bankruptcy process in Sweden is geared towards keeping the company intact if investment can be had, rather than selling off assets. Can someone legally confirm what may become of GM’s connection and stranglehold on Saab as this bankruptcy progresses?
This is not Saab’s swan song….but appears to be SWAN’s swan song.
Uddo said on December 19, 2011
VM to the news agency TT
“I estimate that as many as 50-75 interested parties have contacted the Swan on Saab during the past nine months.
– Of these, perhaps five were serious.”
gannet said on December 19, 2011
I think there is more emotions than brain.
of course there are interested parties. But why now, not months ago – didn’t they know about Saab back then? of course they did, observing, waiting.
Vultures.
There is factory, properties, machinery, tools, all sort of things that will be for sale soon.
Buy dead, split, sell with profit – common business.
If there is someone interested in Saab now (hours after bankrupcy – what a rush to be first in line), they are not interested in car production. Get real. If they would be, they would do it months ago. I think it is pretty clear.
It is nice to be full of hopes and optimism (borderline illusions), but it is one of the things that killed Saab.
kochje said on December 19, 2011
+1
CSD_ChineseSaabDriver said on December 19, 2011
As I said yesterday bankruptcy does not automatically mean the end of Saab.
Saab will certainly live for a long long time, it is just unimaginable that such a beauty brank would disappear.
I was pretty calm to the filing of bankruptcy, and I am still very positive about the future of Saab.
It is great news that other parties are now showing up, I think Saab will become the real Saab again with the new investment on the Phoenix, kick GM out, completely.
My guess:
Volvo might take over Saab.
Or BAIC (which already got the old 93/95).
Of course anyone else also welcome, be it BMW, Tata or anyone, as long as SAAB goes on and on.
Cheers, be positive
FB said on December 19, 2011
My guess: Peugeot/Citroën
Tone said on December 20, 2011
I’d like to see someone like Mahindra & Mahindra buy Saab. After all, I think many people would feel more comfortable with an Indian company buying Saab than a Chinese company, and Tata have done an excellent job with Jaguar and Land Rover. M&M are also only into SUVs and pick-up trucks at the moment, and they bought SsangYong a while back … on paper, it makes sense.
Mandy said on December 19, 2011
Hopefully some chinese company (preferable the ones we already know) will buy the “former” Saab factory from the bankruptcy division, not using anything GM nor the name, but building it’s own new brand on own platform, own tools, parts etc.
Could it be named Griffin maybe?
Or Victory? And the first models could called Griffin or Victory United, Griffin or Victory Revenge or the like.
The people are there, knowledge, expertise is there, techinicians are there. And as somebody suggested, maybe building wind mills or something else until the car assembly is up and running in Trollhattan whatever time that may take and simultaneously setting up a couple of plants in China.
Then GM would be out and I assume not able to say anything if not using their platform, technology, etc.???
Maybe the last word has not yet been told in this whole affair, maybe ther is a plan TC (for Trollhattan-China)?
And Bird Phoenix will again be rising.
saaburban said on December 19, 2011
Conclusions…. on buying Saab in a bankrupt state.
1. Who got money to buy: the chinese
2. Who got NDRC blessing to buy: Youngman (Pangda)
3. Why do they want to buy: branding & knowhow
4. What do they need to create 3 new models:
First: R&D
Second: Production in China & Sweden
Third: Marketing & dealer network in the world & china
Conclusion:Ym buys bankrupt saab, starts R&D immediately, waits 2 years to start production in sweden & china, negotiate right to use Saab brand, developes 3 new attractive models with competitive price, gets new and old dealers to sell saabs in china and the rest of the world. …..
Act two has just started.
4.
CSD_ChineseSaabDriver said on December 19, 2011
Good points. Hope this time it really comes true.
SAAB, MY LOVE
Iiari said on December 19, 2011
Interesting analysis…
First of all, to preface, I’m not holding on to any hope anymore. I’m tired of announcements of “interest” and “inquiring parties.” As far as I’m emotionally concerned, Saab died today. If anything substantial happens, then great. But I’m not latching on to any more vague statements…
That said, your analysis IS interesting. I’ve said for months now (look back at my comments) that Saab would best be purchased as a “dead” automaker for 1-2 years, mothballing the factory, not paying workers, and ditching all the GM IP. The current 9-3 apparently barely breaks even, and the 9-5 I guess loses money. The 9-4X probably didn’t make enough in the end to make it worthwhile. So, essentially, cut the factory lose for 1-2 years, do R&D, and start anew in mid 2013 and relaunch the brand. With all respect to the sadly out of work factory folks, the need to keep them and the factory going has been the problem in this sale.
Also, I’m sure many of the interested parties are interested in the factory, not the Saab brand. For a Chinese, Indian, or Korean automaker, the presence of a factory like that smack dab in the Euro market ready to go must be very appealing.
Vagabond said on December 19, 2011
I think BMW could pick up the remains, like they did with the BMC Mini. They can then turn around and build another mini, …say the Saab 900 Mini, with a 900 mini retro look. They will then have expanded their line-up. Definite possibility. …Vagabond Christmas 2011wish.
gannet said on December 19, 2011
BMW got Mini and Rolls-Royce to get market segments, they did not have.
completely different story. Saab would fire into their own territory. Pointless for them.
Beside, they do not have front drive platform Saab could use.
building 9-5 on 5er/7er platform would be crazy – it would be awful bastard.
9-3 on 3er platform? same.
Plus they still remember painful and costly experience with Rover.
I would bet nobody even thinks about Saab at the moment in Munich.
(I got BMW 5combi recently – when I saw waiting for 9-5combi would be like waiting for Godot)
Vagabond said on December 19, 2011
Congratulations on your BMW 5 Combi purchase Gannet. Did you buy it ‘new’ or used? Interesting…good luck. My Grundig Satelit 650 doesn’t work.
gannet said on December 19, 2011
I dont understand how bankruptcy “cuts” strings with GM. how? all cars that could Saab make at the moment is GM based. And it really does not matter if it is 40%, 30% or 65% of parts and components. Saab, even bought by anyone, cannot live without GM.
Catch 22. Totally.
And thinking, that any investor will wait for years before first nonGM based Saab will be ready for customer, is crazy.
GM is in charge, holding all the cards, even now. Sad.
I wonder if they planned this even 2 years ago, I would not be surprised.
terry9000k said on December 19, 2011
I read earlier today on SU, that the new Phoenix platform is still based on 50% GM technology
Smithy said on December 19, 2011
And I read somewhere that it was only about 10 to 15 %…
Polle said on December 19, 2011
As I understood, it uses 10% GM parts, not technology
Red J said on December 19, 2011
terry, the new 9-3 would use 55% GM parts not the platform. And the 10% – 15% GM tech, as explained by VM today, could be changed to a non GM tech. I t is only a question of money.
CSD_ChineseSaabDriver said on December 19, 2011
And I really want to say:
Deep respect for Victor Muller, he did his best, and in my book he is a great business man, I wish he will have again a great role in the new Saab.
I also have great respect for Youngman, they did their best, they trust in Saab, but GM is a su.cker.
saabserb said on December 19, 2011
In his latest article Jonas Froberg mentions a company from Turkey interested in buying whole SAAB:
http://www.svd.se/naringsliv/saabanalys-jonas-froberg_6720401.svd
kochje said on December 19, 2011
I am really dissapointed that now new contacts do show up.
Why?, just to take up the good and interesting pats at an affordable price?
They should have come earlier in order to continue the existing conmpany.
What about the employees, the dealers and all that are directly involved in working with Saab?
It might well be that parts will continue but we should have had peope with the guts to save the company as it was.
Unrealistic?, why?
CSD_ChineseSaabDriver said on December 19, 2011
I doubt GM will then say YES to them
kochje said on December 19, 2011
I agree with you; GM will just always say NO.
Whatever party will present itself; they will always hit the concrete GM wall.
Saabman said on December 19, 2011
This is my first post on here, although I have read plenty of posts. I have worked for Saab GB for many years and today was a disaster. 20 of the most experienced hard working Saab GB employees were made redundant (me included) and there are only 6 people left. Whatever happens to Saab in Sweden the brand impact has been reduced to next to nothing. We blame many people and feel very let down but I can’t see past the Swedish government. If they had put together a more supportive deal two years ago GM would not have been able to kill Saab. They needed to take control instead of hiding. VM worked like a lion but his biggest mistake was that he did not bring in new management at the start, too many ‘old school’ remained and were not in touch with reality particularly in finance , well we have all paid the price……
kochje said on December 19, 2011
I feel sorry for you and the other Saab UK employees, like all other dealerships arround the word which need to lay off people now.
I agree however with you for 100% that I cannot understand that a government of such a devellopped country in Europe did let go down one of his most iconic industries.
CSD_ChineseSaabDriver said on December 19, 2011
My God, Rachel Pang gave an interview to Chinese media today, she is pretty positive about producing Saab new cars, she also talked about the newly established JV with Saab: Saab Automobile Development AB
Chinese
http://auto.163.com/11/1219/19/7LLLK9N300084TV0.html
GoogleT:
Young car: Investment unscathed development platform based on Saab
2011-12-19 19:27:55 Source: Netease car integrated with 0 in cell phone to read news
Pangcai Ping said the funds invested part of the development is for the establishment of the Swedish Saab company, other investment funds in exchange for the technology. Young people have successfully purchased the Swedish car brand new Saab platform technology developed by Phoenix, the data have been back in China, this technology is very high-end, the absolute value for money.
NetEase automobile comprehensive report on 19 December 2011 acquisition of the global automotive industry’s annual drama was undoubtedly the case, “the acquisition of Saab Automobile”, and never betray the young lotus beginning to end with Saab reached the final, ten months of suffering day and night, has been hidden Lotus in the story behind the young chief negotiator young daughter Pangcai Ping (Rachel Pang) slowly emerge. Today reporter that Saab filed for bankruptcy in the news, interviewed the first time Pangcai Ping, is a huge youth lotus out of the deal after the first Saab positive response.
Reporter: Swedish media reported that Saab has filed for bankruptcy, the news is true does it?
Pangcai Ping: Yes, in fact, we have been insisting to the last, a little more this morning, the two sides also discussed solutions through long-distance telephone. As the common position, today at 9:15 am Swedish time points, the Swedish Saab offered to bankruptcy, this Court scheduled for today’s Saab reorganization hearing is not required.
Reporter: After the young people out of large cars with Saab has been investigating alternative options that can reveal what kind of program structure?
Pangcai Ping: October memorandum signed with the Swedish car, the young lotus and a large automobile trade 60:40 joint acquisition of the Swedish car company Saab’s plan, GM said the opposition. After the young lotus lotus made by the young Swedish joint venture with Saab Saab Automobile Development Corporation, in the new Phoenix platform development 91,92,93,94,95,96,97 models, Saab purchase R & D center, Saab Powertrain.
The model development is complete, no need to use common technologies, development company and Saab Saab car company will be merged, when young people accounted for 70% stake in Lotus, the Swedish car (Spyker) accounted for 30% of the shares.
In this scenario, the Swedish Saab Saab vehicle development company to purchase R & D center, Powertrain, and the Swedish Saab automobile company owned by a total of 200 million euros. However, the program still has not been universal recognition.
Reporter: You mentioned the development of the Swedish company Saab is what kind of company, is set up?
Pangcai Ping: Sweden’s Saab Automobile Development Company is incorporated in Sweden in September, the English full name is SaabAutomobile Development AB, Sweden’s Saab Automobile young lotus, and accounting for 50% of the shares, profit distribution and decision-making young people accounted for 70% of Lotus Pang total chairman.
Reporter: If Saab bankrupt, before the investment is not a youth failed to be implemented?
Pangcai Ping: They do not. Part of our investment funds established for development of the Swedish Saab company, other investment funds in exchange for the technology. Lotus has successfully purchased a young Swedish Saab brand new platform technology developed by Phoenix, the data have been back in China, this technology is very high-end, the absolute value for money.
Reporter: What young people plan the next step?
Pangcai Ping: Next we will enable the development of the Swedish Saab automobile company, has received the technology with Saab for the Swedish development company developing and producing 91,92,93,94,95,96,97 models.
(This article Source: NetEase automobile Consolidation) Zhang Wei
CSD_ChineseSaabDriver said on December 19, 2011
This is a summary page about Saab
http://auto.163.com/special/bankruptcysaab/?ewai
hilmar said on December 19, 2011
I try to understand – this will be the way out of this mess ?! If it comes true it will be a terrific move !
GerritN said on December 19, 2011
Aaaaaaah, no more Google translate pleeeeez!
Can a human please translate and make sense of this? Looks like there is a lot of info there but it is just turned into googlygrok.
Allan B said on December 19, 2011
I can only half understand the story posted by CSD, but it sounds like a pretty major newsflash. SU what do you make of this?
CSD_ChineseSaabDriver said on December 19, 2011
OK, I only translate the most important messages in this interview given by Rachel Pang today after Saab filling bankruptcy:
1. Rachel Pang is already in China, with the Phoenix platform technology which YM has paid for.
2. YM did their best for Saab, but GM always says No, so they had no more choice but to give up.
3. YM has already set up a JV with Saab, the Saab Automobile Development AB, based in Sweden.
4. YM’s next step is to start Saab Automobile Development AB, and let this JV (in Sweden) to develop the new 91、92、93、94、95、96、97.
hilmar said on December 19, 2011
Wow !
quickbird said on December 19, 2011
Don’t think this really works. Even YM build some cars based on Phoenix, it is a YM car, not the original Saab from Sweden. like the car build by BAIC…
Really hope some company can buy SAAB as a whole instead chopping it into several pieces and buy part by part….
terry9000k said on December 19, 2011
Response:
1. Youngman have not paid 70mil euro in full….
not to Saab directly, but some to Swan JV and only for a ‘shared’ use agreement?
2. Agree
3. YM has not set a JV with Saab automobiles, but with Swan. Any agreement that was with Saab, is now gone with bankruptcy.
4. As 3.
quickbird said on December 19, 2011
3 really means YM will invest new money to Saab Automobile Development AB and give the Phoenix technology to the JV for developing the 91-97 model. This has nothing related to SAAB anymore. It is just YM’s act.
Thus even the car developed by the JV, it is not Saab, it is just a car from YM, like the car build by BAIC…
skwdenyer said on December 19, 2011
Without the benefit of being able to read Chinese… the implications of this are:
a) YM already have sufficient Phoenix data with which to develop a new car;
b) YM already have a JV company with SWAN;
c) YM are proposing to invest assets (the Phoenix data) and money in a R&D operation in Sweden to take forward the Phoenix designs.
This poses as many questions as it answers. Re the JV, this is what was written by Saab:
So the SPV owes Saab 70mil euro, and YM guaranteed to pay that to Saab. How much of that money has been paid? We don’t know, but the IP transfer almost certainly took place to the SPV, and the SPV will be amongst Saab’s debtors if the price hasn’t been paid in full. Either way, the IP is in the SPV, which is not owned or controlled by Saab, but by SWAN.
Separately, in September, a new company was indeed created: Saab Automobile Development AB. In November, Pang Qingnian (YM Chairman) and Pang Caiping (YM CEO) joined the board alongside VM and Martin Larsson. Saab Automobile Development AB was not involved with the reorganisation and has not filed for bankruptcy today.
According to SWAN’s Q3 2011 results report:
So this means that YM own 50% of the shares in Saab Automobile Development AB. Does Saab Automobile AB still own the other 50%, or were they passed to SWAN? Perhaps the share structure was set up in such a way that, if Saab Automobile AB files for bankruptcy, its shares are nullified and YM end up with 100%? Perhaps YM have a right of first refusal to purchase the shares? Either way, what is in that company? What assets have been put there, what development has been undertaken within it, what contracts have been signed by it? Whatever it is, it has cost money. From SWAN’s 2011 Q3 report again:
So in the first few days of September, SAD did enough ‘something’ to leave Saab Automobile AB owing it nearly 7 million euro! That’s not bad going for only a few days of operation… Or perhaps YM put some money into SAD which was in turn lent to Saab Automobile AB?
There’s also some confusion between references to ‘Saab Automobile Development AB’ and ‘Swedish Saab Automobile Development AB’. I believe the latter is correct.
So, what can we conclude from all of this? YM have certainly put some money in. They own half of a JV company, but we don’t know who owns the other half, and the JV company is not in bankruptcy. They have a contract with another SPV company (which belongs to SWAN) over a licence to the Phoenix technology, they may or may not owe that company some money, and that company may or may not owe some money to Saab.
It will be very interesting to see what shakes out in the next few days. My guess is that YM were not at all as ‘exposed’ as people supposed, and have ended up with decent collateral against their money (unlike PangDa, who had shares in Saab GB as collateral…).
quickbird said on December 20, 2011
You are right. YM is very happy what they got now. It is Swedish Saab Automobile Development AB.
But it is nothing related to Saab. The car they build is like another car built by BAIC.
Our Saab is dead if nobody come and take over it by a whole in the next several days.
CSD_ChineseSaabDriver said on December 19, 2011
Yes you are right, thanks for making it more clear
ivo 71 said on December 20, 2011
SWAN hasn’r declared bankruptcy or insolvency yet.
Ivo
Allan B said on December 19, 2011
Thanks for that, CSD. Come on, SU insiders!
Det finns någonting i görningen, eller hur?
Niklas G said on December 20, 2011
Gosh, sometimes it sounds like different parties is living on different planets. Youngman believes that they have already bought the Phoenix platform and will go on developing new cars based on it?
Not a word about any such possibilities from Muller in all the interviews about the bancruptcy.
In the TV news today it was also mentioned some rumours that (parts of?) the new technology had been moved to some company in the netherlands and the expert asked about this said that if true, it depended on the circumstances whether it was legal or not.
But as always, it’s just rumours, rumours rumours flying around. No reason to believe any of it before hearing any official statements from a safe source confirming the truth in any one of them.
Anyway, big thanks for the translation CSD_ChineseSaabDriver!!
By FAR superior to the Google translation.
scand said on December 19, 2011
Are they basically saying, they don’t really care that it went bust, because they have all the platform IP in China already?
CSD_ChineseSaabDriver said on December 19, 2011
Not true, see my above summary. YM really did their best for 8 months day in day out, not only for the Phoenix but the complete SAAB because they believe in SAAB.
ArchDandy said on December 19, 2011
I am a realist and I still belive in Saab in the future and I hope that the liquidator understand the potential in Saab Automobile.
And I think this is great news. There are some people in the world with a lot of money and are like us, Saabfanatics. They want´s to invest and develop Saab.
The game is not over, it´s just a beginning but what is the name of this game? We will know soon. I just feel it, my feelings tells me that there´s are some solution and that´s why I am calm right know.
I cannot see a world without Saab. I don´t wanna see a world without Saab. It has to much potential.
Vagabond said on December 19, 2011
Wonder how Geely was able to buy Volvo. I guess Volvo didn’t have any Ford technology. Hmmm interesting..
gannet said on December 19, 2011
Ford did not mind, GM did mind. Painfuly simple.
Ford did not mind to sell Jag to India either.
If GM had Jag, I quess they would rather kill it than sell it. I do not understand how GM can be the biggest car manufacturer in the world with such policy about they brands. They close brands like “click” – e.g. Oldsmobile (oldest they had).
Vagabond said on December 19, 2011
GM , better known as Government Motors, was destined for the automotive scrap heap and would be there now, but they were given a new life, courtesy of the American taxpayers, specifically the Government, the Obama administration and are now partly owned by the Unions. They were a very badly managed company and did not know how to turn a profit without Government help.
saabdog said on December 19, 2011
They won’t be the biggest for much longer. What goes around, comes around.
davidgmills said on December 20, 2011
Unlike Saab, both Volvo and Jaguar had their own look and feel that were quite different from Ford. Ford of Europe was not putting Volvo and Jaguar badges on their cars and selling them. GM basically over twenty years had merged and integrated Saab with Opel and GM America in terms of platforms, engines, and looks etc. Ford didn’t have Volvo or Jaguar anywhere near as long as GM had Volvo or Volvo and Jaguar would have become integrated into Ford and eventually become Ford clones.
So GM was in a much different spot when it came to selling Saab than Ford was with Jaguar and Volvo. I don’t think it is far to compare the two at all.
So GM has a much more legitimate concern about what happens to its Saab technologies than Ford had with Volvo and Jaguar.
Baver said on December 20, 2011
That may be true, but why didn’t they, GM, give a crap about selling all of their precious IP to China with the failed Hummer sale? The Hummer H3 had a OG Saab dashboard in it.
sa10 said on December 19, 2011
During of bankruptcy most promising assets will transferred to the new SAAB (SAAB-PhoeniX) and a year later, we are able to buy a new saab
Skeptics should look at this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ps0DSihggio
By this time, GM and many others will go bankrupt, financial crisis is over.
And all will be happy to buy new saab
hilmar said on December 19, 2011
The “New Saab” is born – or do I misunderstand anything ?
Mike Wray said on December 19, 2011
Really hope that something can be done with someone stepping in to buy the company and ridding the brand of its GM ties, but echo the great many other comments on here that my thoughts are also with all those who have not been paid – I really hope they get some good news out of all of this.
JoPlSe said on December 19, 2011
Seriously, what are the options? Does anyone have any idea which companies that are interested and strong enough to go through with such a deal? BMW, Audi, VW, a Japanese brand?…….. If it is a substantial competitor to GM then GM may just close the door once again.
terry9000k said on December 19, 2011
Only if they [whoever they are] need/use GM IP/parts bin
kochje said on December 19, 2011
Just ignore GM as of now, hope at the end they will feel what is is to be thrown away.
DanSaab said on December 19, 2011
I believe it’s time to arrange the SAVE SAAB convoy again like 2 years ago to show support for Saab and show that we want them to stay alive!! And that we enthusiasts won’t give up so easily!! SPREAD IT!!
Saabman said on December 19, 2011
Saab has gone, all that remains are people who live in cookoo land! Did you listen to the market call that was posted on here? Knut simonson wishing everybody happy christmas when we are being made redundant….. Too many people is Sweden live in a bubble. He said we will have a call next week, not with us because we are not there anymore…. OUT OF TOUCH…
DanSaab said on December 20, 2011
Not giving up so easily! Always worth a try though…
kochje said on December 19, 2011
But so do it in front of the Swedish embassies so the government of Sweden gets blamed of not having thrown the rescue line on time.
Marque said on December 20, 2011
+1
SweGov really should get its portion finally.
Imagine thousands of Saabs circling around Swe parliament, and Swe embassies around the world. That would make a statement and would cost us nearly nothing. I bet Swegov would hardly like the situation to be pulled into the center of the world’s attention – especially being so in a negative context! At least they deserve it for their neglectful approach, to say the least, but harmful may be more appropriate.
We may have to act until it’s not too late. If Saab’s gone for good, then it is very very late to attain the smallest worldwide attention.
So basically, to finally show our support – the time is right now!
Nate 9-3 said on December 20, 2011
Sounds like a great idea to me. This idea has traction.
DanSaab said on December 20, 2011
Then we have to spread it fast!
Jelmer said on December 20, 2011
I agree, verry good idea! And if thats not working block the Orsund bride Kopenhagen Malmo with Saabs
Marque said on December 20, 2011
I hope you are not being serious about the bridge blocking. But then I also hope you’re not making fun of the situation. That would be very disappointing.
terry9000k said on December 20, 2011
In the UK, when the then Labour Goverment went to the Vauxhall Plant in Luton praising them & patting on their back.
Meanwhile, up in Birmingham the LDV van plant was seeking some Goverment help or Bankruptcy.
The Labour Goverment helped Vauxhall but not LDV.
LDV when up the wall, the UK last specialist van maker’s production line , etc, all went like all the others today, to China.
The workers & people of Birmingham, were not very happy…..and said to the then business minister [now; Lord MANDELSON] ‘You [the Goverment] wait, we Will remember this when the General elections come…..and they did.
Labour are no longer the UK Goverment [Thank God].
Be warned Swegov, voters have long memories….
zippy said on December 20, 2011
I have been trying to ignore this whole situation all day as I have an important job interview tomorrow but my whole take is that GM sold Saab to Muller knowing full well that the company would not survive more than 18 months therefore absolving themselves of any blame when the proverbial you know what hit the fan a second time. The SweGov sat back and did sweet FA to even attempt to help Saab unlike the US government which saved GM from certain closure. All I can say is I am sure GM has its (lame) reasons for wanting Saab gone but I do feel VM should have had closer ties with India as he surely must have anticipated GM wouldnt play ball. GM will be Chinese owned in 10 years. Karma has ssen to that.
I feel sorry for Saab employees and their families, and particularly upset for a big hearted Aussie we have all come to love and respect.
The next few weeks are gonna be tough. I hope and pray something good happens.
Marque said on December 20, 2011
We all do.
In the meantime, break a leg for tomorrow!
DanSaab said on December 20, 2011
I am gonna pray for Saab as far as possible!!
Baver said on December 20, 2011
Well said. Good luck on the interview!
MarkS said on December 20, 2011
I still have a glimmer of hope!
Markac said on December 20, 2011
Hold on to that hope. Somehow I don’t think Saab has quite used up all of it’s nine lives just yet.
Markac said on December 20, 2011
My gut feeling has always been that Saab would survive. Perhaps it will in a slightly different form?
BTW Arild has done a terrific summing up of GM on Life with Saab: http://www.lifewithsaab.com/
It sums up a lot of things I have written myself at SaabsUnited and TrollhattanSaab over the years, both in comments and a couple of articles I managed to write.
This is not the end folks, I’m sure. A new beginning perhaps?
Cowboy Up!
DanSaab said on December 20, 2011
+1
Angelo V. said on December 20, 2011
I hope the name survives. For several years now, I’ve been of the opinion that the future for Saab is in lower priced cars with less content. Less expensive cars, perhaps a smaller hatchback—-frankly, less technology, not more. Cars that might match Volkswagen’s range, or Mazda’s, or Subaru’s. If Saab (at least the name) survives, hopefully the U.S. and other nations’ dealer networks will mostly stay intact—-and as soon as possible, a couple new models will be offered. Maybe they can be rebadged existing cars to bridge the gap until something newer and more genuine is designed. What’s Daewoo doing these days?
Markac said on December 20, 2011
Daewoo is GM Korea and only uses the Daewoo brand in Korea now. It makes cars like the Chevrolet Cruze for many other markets.
DanSaab said on December 20, 2011
I found this recently:
http://di.se/Artiklar/2011/12/19/254151/Youngman-redo-lagga–bud-pa-Saab/
Johnaaj said on December 20, 2011
…and Saab’s friend Bård Eker and Koenigsegg is interested again.
Look at this published in Norwegain newspapers today (in Norwegain):
http://www.dn.no/dnBil/article2295423.ece
DanSaab said on December 20, 2011
That would be very nice if they could save SAAB
Jarkko said on December 20, 2011
I have always thought that Fiat should purchase Saab. They have very poor sales in the Northern part of Europe (as I guess Saab sells poorly in South). Also Alfa is marginal up here – and Lancia don’t exist. My reasoning would be a Alfa based Saab. Why not?
Or Nissan/Renaul? Now that Renault don’t work with Volvo in the Nordics anymore. A premium brand for both companies.
Any hope?
Red J said on December 20, 2011
Jarkko, Italy and Spain have been good markets for Saab, even bleeding Greece and Portugal.
And regarding an Saab based Alfa Romeo, the last thing I’ve read is that AR will be restarted form 2013 on with RWD Chrysler platforms.
Daniel B said on December 20, 2011
Holding on to a straw that CJ and his group still might be interested in Saab. I always felt that they had the knowledge and experience to make Saab work again.
/Daniel
DanSaab said on December 20, 2011
Is there any chance that CJ/Merbanco is intrested again? Hope that!