Youngman has placed a bid!
February 2, 2012 in News
First bid, according to National Swedish Radio News/EKOT, was sent to the lawyers some days ago.
1000 workers need for production. 9-3 can be built without GM involvement alongside with Lotus cars.
—
Swedish TV4 tonight reports this:
Still no comments from the lawyers.
Johan Nylen, Youngmans swedish contact says “No comments” first but then goes on, “Plans for immediate restart of Saab, discussions with significant people and suppliers are ongoing”, according to Nylen.
ArchDandy said on February 2, 2012
YES YES YES.
Griffin Up everybody. This is the time.!!!
DUTCH900C said on February 2, 2012
+1
AeroDanny said on February 2, 2012
You mean, “The time is now” =)
ArchDandy said on February 2, 2012
Yes.
Paddan said on February 2, 2012
This is a step in the right direction.
Smithy said on February 2, 2012
Wow…
So this “Lotus” – I’m confused, is it the British brand with the sports car Elise and so on?
Trued said on February 2, 2012
http://www.youngmanlotus.com/
Since 18 November 2006, Youngman is also the official importer of sports cars from the English manufacturer Lotus Cars. In another joint-venture with the Lotus Group which was closed in December 2008, Youngman is assembling Lotus and Europestar branded cars in Guangdong for the Domestic Chinese and export market. The units receive a Chinese independent brand to differentiate itself from the English sports car models. The Chinese part of the Lotus Cars is better known under the name Youngman Lotus. With the Lotus joint venture, Youngman is engaged in secondary activities as the exclusive importer of American automotive brand ZAP!. Both brands had its China debut at the Beijing International Auto Show in 2009.
dave lewis said on February 2, 2012
Then who is this?
http://www.lotuscars.com/news/en/lotus-is-coming-to-china
Lotus NYO
This is a Youngman Lotus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2011_Youngman_Lotus_L5.jpg
davidgmills said on February 2, 2012
ZAP — Never heard of it. I wonder how many dealers there are in the US and where they are. Never seen any commercials for it either.
Jeff said on February 2, 2012
This is the first comment I’ve made in a while, but it has to be said. ZAP is basically a stock scam. They used to release press statements to pump and dump their stock, the CEO then sold the Pangs on the promise of low cost and easy to build electric cars. If you want the full and most accurate account, read the Wired Magazine piece. It’s astounding, and one of the many initial reasons I wasn’t too keen on the Youngman connection.
I’m happy if Youngman can realize the amazing asset Saab is and what an incredible opportunity it is for them if they manage it correctly. I would also hope that they not build Youngman Lotus branded cars in Trollattan, but don’t see why they would need to given that they have a lot more capacity in China already. Youngman is working on an original Lotus engineering platform called the APX (branded ZAP-X and now vaporware originally by ZAP!) for their new Chinese built crossover. At one point in time, I really was hoping ZAP! would be first to market with it. Alas, with the current crop of crossovers, it looks dated now. When one looks at the grill of their new patent application for the new Youngman SUV, you’ll see they’re already
ripping offusing Saab design traits in the grill and proportions. I don’t know how I feel about this.Compare that to the quick photoshop I did overlaying the grill from the Phoenix Concept (which we were told was close to the new 93 if you recall) on top of it.
I really hope Youngman would manage Saab in much the same way Tata manages Jaguar Land Rover (I understand the differences, but really think that an autonomous European on the ground team is crucial). But their track record with Lotus (which isn’t actual Lotus cars merely Protons) is anything but exemplary to date with allegations of dishonesty and name infringement, so there’s not exactly great relations between the two companies right now. That comes from a pretty high up source within Lotus through one of our contacts at SU. I’m hoping the Pangs prove their partners’ opinions false.
Lotus ≠ Youngman, Proton ~ Youngman makes more sense. I don’t know if that’s what the original news references.
Baver said on February 2, 2012
This is precisely why we shouldn’t get too excited over this yet. Let’s see the other bids. (Once they are in, that is.)
Angelo V. said on February 2, 2012
I would think the Lotus partners would need to prove their opinions about the Pangs are true—-it’s hard to prove a negative, so I don’t hold out much hope that the Pang’s can prove something “isn’t.”
Analyst said on February 2, 2012
Can you explain the story about the Lotus name a little better? As far as I know Yougman sells Protons branded as “Lianhua” cars, which means lotus (the flower) in Chinese.
AFAIK Lotus Cars was going was adopting 路特斯 (lu te si) as its Chinese name, a transliteration of “Lotus.” This would be like practically every single Western brand in China; they all use a transliterated name rather than a translated one.
Alex740 said on February 2, 2012
Fantastic News!!!!!!!!!
Is this the same Lotus that produces the beautiful Evora?! Or is it a Chinese brand?
Bravada from GMI said on February 2, 2012
Nope, they are actually rebranded and, partially, remodelled Protons, over which Youngman is in a slow-moving trademark conflict with Proton and their subsidiary Lotus Cars, who in turn seem to be for sale.
http://www.youngmanlotus.com/
Alex740 said on February 2, 2012
I guess that would have been a little too good to be true. Oh well, still good news!
bpsorrel said on February 2, 2012
A Yougman “Lotus” http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/14/2011_Youngman_Lotus_L5.jpg/800px-2011_Youngman_Lotus_L5.jpg
I hope that’s not re-branded a Saab some way down the road…
Alex740 said on February 2, 2012
yeah, i just started to think the same thing bpsorrel. With production of those cars being moved to Sweden, makes me wonder what their intentions are with the brand. I’m pulling back my excitement and changing it to cautious optimism.
bpsorrel said on February 2, 2012
Agreed. I’m waiting to hear the news from Mahindra……..
RS said on February 2, 2012
Well, if they buy a car factory with a capacity of around 150.000 units but only have one Saab model for the next two years, they might try and fill that gap with something else?
GM built the rebadged Caddy BS… sorry, BLS in THN and that didn’t influence the Saab quality/image in any way, as it shouldn’t.
I believe Valmet built Saabs, Porsche Boxters and Euro Lada’s -yes Lada- in the same factory in the late 90′s.
Angelo V. said on February 2, 2012
If the survival of Saab is predicated on rebranding another car while a more “genuine” Saab is created, bring it on. If the choices are either the death of the brand forever—–or Saabs we’d rather not see for a while—-possibly leading to better Saabs—-I’ll take the latter.
davidgmills said on February 2, 2012
butt-ugly
Smithy said on February 2, 2012
Also looks like the 9-5, the beautiful 9-5 won’t ever be produced again.
I simply have to get it in a few years when I have the funds – it’s legendary!
Trued said on February 2, 2012
Good luck! If there are any out on the market then. I plan to keep mine for a looooong time
Carmania said on February 2, 2012
I’m already looking for a white 4WD Aero that I can keep until the new non-GM generation come.
AeroDanny said on February 2, 2012
I had been eyeing one here in Chicago until it looked like there was a definite buyer for the company but it looks like there was a more definite buyer for that white 9-5 Aero as it sold this past weekend. =(
It was white with parchment interior, nav, heated AND cooled seats which I must have for the summers!
Niklas G said on February 2, 2012
“Do You, J. Trued, take this Jet Black Saab 9-5 to love and cherish (etc…) until death do you apart?”
Not sure if I got the details right there, but the main message felt somewhat suitable.
Legally Saab said on February 2, 2012
Dear all,
My very first post at saabsunited. As a lawyer I have followed discussions on this forum with great interest. Many things about IPR (intellectual property rights) are commonly misunderstood here. It seems as the license agreements between Saab and GM concerned “technology” only. But what about design rights? It would surprise me much if Saab did not own the design rights to its own cars. Why would GM have keept them back in 2009? Hence, it should not at all be impossible for Saab to manufacture look-a-like NG 95′s and 94x’s on another platform. Maybe you tech nerds out there could tell us how much time Saab would save in its developing process if one would assume that all the necessary design work already has been done. Would it be possible to take the Phoenix platform and scale it up to swiftly fit the current NG 95 and 94x designs?
hilmar said on February 2, 2012
Welcome – and the technicians should really think about your words !
Red J said on February 2, 2012
Hi Legally,
well there is a problem if the proportions of the platform and the proportions of the car doesn’t match.
On the one side the phoenix modular platform can go from 5.2m till down to 3.8m (not sure about the lower limit), so it can (and will) adopt a big sedan (call it 9-5) and a SUV (call it 9-4x) in a couple of years time, but the phoenix is wider and the overhangs are shorter than the ones from Eps II(9-5) or Theta-Epsilon(9-4x), for that reason adapting the 9-5 to phoenix would change its proportions. It amy look better than the current one, but it can also look much worse, so I don’t see any big advantages in trying to adopt the current car instead of creating a new one.
At the end of the day, you would only adapt the outer surfaces, but you could not even use the stamping dies, as you would have to change them slightly.
Angelo V. said on February 2, 2012
I asked this question the other day, since I’m not technical enough to know how difficult it is to put a body shell on a different platform—-and not well versed enough legally to know if they can do it without being sued.
Anders said on February 2, 2012
It’s a good thought, but there is a bit more to be done than just scale the body shell of the current 9-5 and 9-4 to fit for the phoenix platform.
Smithy said on February 2, 2012
@Trued
I’ve actually written down a specific registration number that belongs to a fully equipped 9-5 Aero XWD 300 BHP – I’m considering to contact the future owner in a few years…
Hans H said on February 2, 2012
Perhaps one should try to find one of those rare 9-4x.
(No, I cant, really. My budget is in the “rusty V4″-domain, regrettably.)
xelav said on February 2, 2012
Okay, first bid, now the others will have to follow soon with their proposals. Hahahhahaahahaha, Saab for life! O no that was Volvo …..
xlx said on February 2, 2012
maybe the bids are already there, we just dont know
zippy said on February 2, 2012
I cant see how they are going to produce a 9-3 without GM tech. Do we really want a Saab built with Chinese ‘technology’. Not for me thanks.
Carmania said on February 2, 2012
Why Chinese? There are many suppliers around the world. BMW for example!
Tilley said on February 2, 2012
I believe it has to do with the age of the platform. Enough time has passed that there may be ways around GM.
Angelo V. said on February 2, 2012
Zippy: I’m considering myself a “beggar” for the Saab brand to continue to exist. As we know, beggars can’t be choosers, so I’ll take whatever technology can facilitate production—-assuming it’s not junk. But I have no reason to believe they’re going to have to resort to junk to make the 9-3 live.
liftarn said on February 3, 2012
One supplier for engines I’ve heard about is Fiat.
Oskar Malmgren said on February 2, 2012
This is great news! Let us hope that Youngman want to keep the Saab-brand and manufacture Saabcars!
Jelmer said on February 2, 2012
Saab 91 elise… Here we come….
Joshua Daily said on February 2, 2012
Quick question. They need 1,000 workers, which is a lot. But how many lost their jobs when Saab first filed for Bankruptcy?
Red J said on February 2, 2012
Saab had 3,600 workers.
clean_kirill said on February 2, 2012
1000 workers – is it much ?
clean_kirill said on February 2, 2012
Joshua Daily was a little bit ahead of me
Joshua Daily said on February 2, 2012
Great Saab minds think alike! I am just curious as to know if this is more or less than Saab had before they went bankrupt. Regardless, if the bid goes through, it’s wonderful news for the unemployed in Trollhattan!
clean_kirill said on February 2, 2012
Rune wrote “more than 1000 engineers worked on the Phoenix platform”. Is it grotesque or true ? Where are all this engineers and are there any jobs for them ?
JH said on February 2, 2012
Saab had around 900 engineers, and all of them were definitely not working on the Phoenix platform.
JH said on February 2, 2012
Saab had around 3400 employees before the bankruptcy. However, when I read the TTELA article on the subject, I interpret it as 1000 employees are needed in the factory, which should not include the engineering centre etcetera.
saabdealer said on February 2, 2012
I wouldn’t get too excited about the connection with “Lotus”. It’s not the Lotus you’re thinking of. It’s a badge on a china-built vehicle.
I’m all for Saab coming back but more and more this is leaning toward Youngman buying pieces of Saab not the whole company as we knew it.
xelav said on February 2, 2012
Bosorrel, thanks for the link, haha, wat à beauty that car. Looks like an ass!
karl said on February 2, 2012
This is great news but Lets wait for mahindra !
zippy said on February 2, 2012
I am guessing they want to build the 9-3 in China.
Carlo A said on February 2, 2012
I am crying like a kid !!!!!
Griffin Up !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
JH said on February 2, 2012
I’m waiting for an official statement with some more details before getting too excited, but still, I’m cautiously optimistic.
JoPlSe said on February 2, 2012
+1
Chris Carrier said on February 2, 2012
The Chinese are masters at the cheap knockoff. Will the 9-3 become a cheap knockoff of itself but look the same on the outside?
Chris Carrier said on February 2, 2012
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_aP9GCIsMWY0/S8qIRTukx-I/AAAAAAAAAF0/uy3SZFaPz3c/s1600/china-iphone1248227378.jpg
Hope they can work something out with GM.
David-SAAB said on February 2, 2012
And the news we have waited for.
maanders said on February 2, 2012
Maybe. We need more information.
M.A. said on February 2, 2012
Justin Clapp said on February 2, 2012
Such good news!
Baver said on February 2, 2012
One bid in, let’s see the other four before we get too excited.
Angelo V. said on February 2, 2012
+1
julie@KellySAAB said on February 2, 2012
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/02/02/saab-youngman-idUSL5E8D26Y420120202
posted just now…
SAAB Up!
Let’s hope this makes it happen!
John said on February 2, 2012
I wonder if Youngman’s claims of being able to produce the current 9-3 in 15 weeks with no GM tech is true. If so they must have been working on this plan for a while. BAIC apparently also has some non-exclusive rights to the platform and have developed their C70 sedan from that. Could Youngman be planning to buy parts from them?
JH said on February 2, 2012
Maybe Youngman plans to buy the old B2x5 “Södertälje” Saab engines from BAIC.
CSD_ChineseSaabDriver said on February 2, 2012
BAIC indeed has finished that Saab engine, 2 months ago.
Red J said on February 2, 2012
John please, don’t mix up things.
The C70, which looks like an mixture of Merc and Beemer, is based on the first ten 9-5, and uses an updated version of the B235 engine.
The C60, I still haven’t seen it, will be based on the pre-2006 9-3 using the B205 engine.
BAIC is completely redoing those cars and those engines, on the other side Youngman only wants to replace some parts, GM may not deliver.
terry9000k said on February 2, 2012
Red:
http://www.roadandtrack.com/auto-shows/beijing/gallery11
The sides & Rear are quite Saabish….
JH said on February 2, 2012
That is an old concept model, actually built in Trollhättan if I recall correctly. It is not how the finished product will look like.
Red J said on February 3, 2012
I’ve heard that we will see the last revision of the cars on the next Beijing Auto show.
The C70 looked like a 9-5 on its first public appearance, now it looks completely different.
Cokeisit said on February 2, 2012
Sounds great
xelav said on February 2, 2012
Any news yet since the2200 h tv news in sweden?
PatrikH said on February 2, 2012
It is great, I still hope my next SAAB will be a newer SAAB.
orion said on February 2, 2012
My head says: Yes.
My hart says: No
terry9000k said on February 2, 2012
And there-if lies the YM problem…
The B205/B235 [B204/B234] engines were one of the best engines Saab had. Now BAIC has them & Youngman does not.
xelav said on February 2, 2012
Nobody watched tv4 at 2200?
Jim.be said on February 2, 2012
Vad roligt! KANON! … But I’ll just open a bottle when the first SAAB of the new era will leave the factory! I feel on my elbows that this moment will not last long anymore..
Jim
Det är bra!
Så länge det finns liv finns det hopp.
SAAB = Made and to be made in Trollhättan.
MK said on February 2, 2012
Sorry to have to take you all down again…
http://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=125&artikel=4944947
English (google) http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=sv&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=sv&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fsverigesradio.se%2Fsida%2Fartikel.aspx%3Fprogramid%3D125%26artikel%3D4944947&act=url
According to one source, then the receivers have unreasonable demands of a global sales such that they must have the approval of GM.
Saabissimo said on February 2, 2012
Robert Collin is bringing us some interesting news…
http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article14309805.ab
- Baic/Panasonic consortium(!)
- Geely/Volvo want the development centre
He also says that Mahindra is “very” interested.
E said on February 2, 2012
He seems to say at the end of the article that the receivers’ favorites are BAIC and Geely, which would lead to the greatest number of folks out of work in THN. Is that a reasonable translation? Hopefully not true, if so…
Saabissimo said on February 2, 2012
Your translation is unfortunately correct.
The receivers’ brief should be to find the best deal for the creditors I suppose, and nothing else? I can’t see how any of those deals could work out to be more favourable than an all-in-one solution? But I’m not a receiver and don’t have access to the numbers, so what do I know…
Daniel B said on February 2, 2012
I just hope that this is NOT true:
http://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=125&artikel=4944947
The administrators are “refusing” to sell Saab as a whole entity. According to the article they prefer to sell it in pieces..
SU-Crew feels free to translate..
Saabissimo said on February 2, 2012
The gist of the article is that the receivers have as a condition that GM has to approve any deal, which seems a bit odd? Why would their approval be needed now?
I assume the receivers are obliged to find the best deal for creditors. Granted, GM is one of the largest creditors, but surely the word of the other creditors must count as well, not only the word of GM?
Same information in this piece as well, about BAIC/Panasonic & Geely/Volvo being preferred by the receivers, ahead of the three buyers who want to buy the whole thing and produce Saabs.
This is getting interesting. Not necessarily in a good way though.