Easy to build, another issue to sell
January 11, 2013 in Editorial
That basically sums up the reactions from auto-specialists regarding the leaked information about NEVS estimated production figures. And they are absolutely right, yet one interesting fact remains a big mystery, how will NEVS products in China and the rest of the world be received?
After having read tons of articles about auto-sales in China and for the rest of the world it feels that these auto-experts have one thing in common, they all know very little about the Chinese market other than statistics and sales figures. But very few of them have a good grasp on what the Chinese driver wants. Since China right now is the big market actually responsible for some auto brands survival that one market is oh so important.
So who can sell cars to Chinese? well the answer is obvious, Chinese of course and having a very good sales organization in that important country is thus extremely vital for success. Volvo recently sacked most of its marketing and sales organization in China for failing to meet sales targets. Volvo is now trying out a completely new approach in China with brand new people running the show and I have to applaud Volvo’s choice in doing so. One can not grasp on to one single way of doing things and just expect things to work out.
NEVS I feel does not have the privilege of trying more than once. They need to get things right from the start and given NEVS employees huge experience with making business in Asia I truly think that they know whats needed to pull things off.
Government sales is of course so important and the recently created relationship with a province is a very good first step and that need also to be developed into officials driving the cars developed and built by NEVS. If that happens then the brand can establish itself in away that inspires comfort to the private customers as well developing into increased sales.
So what about sales in the rest of the world, well of course the lack of dealerships is something we feel is a big issue as customers. But after talking to a number of dealers that I know who now have moved on to other brands, most of them are more than willing to pick up the Saab brand again, these guys did after all devote their sole and heart to the Saab brand once and deep inside them, that loyalty towards Saab still beats.
Even signs of electric cars being a potential success is starting to show up in different places over the world. I recently visited Ikea in Älmhult, Sweden. The birthplace of the company and what did I see outside, a whole row of parking positions with charging poles and even though most of those spaces were occupied by normal ICE cars, I could actually spot two Nissan Leaf’s being charged while their owners were “wasting” money.
I spent new years eve on Gran Canaria and the airport is right now undergoing a big renovation and when stepping out of the crew bus I had a look at the new parking-area recently finished, a lot of them had charging poles fitted as standard.
These are of course two very small signs but availability of “fuel” is the one thing that determines sales of environmental friendly cars. This was very true of E85 once it was introduced. If the government in Sweden had not forced all service stations selling more than a certain quantity of fuel per year to introduce at least one environmental friendly option, E85 would never have become a hit in Sweden. Ever since E85 was introduce in Sweden the sales figures have increased by 3-5% every year…
After many hours of conversations with NEVS executives and staff I know that NEVS have done their homework, now we’re seeing that NEVS have the ability to establish partnerships, what they need to prove now is that they can create a marketing and sales department who can learn exactly what kind of product the customers (we) need and want which can comply with future environmental and safety regulations…
Angelo V. said on January 11, 2013
I happen to think people are people. Yes, societies are different—-cultures are different—-but some things seem to be the same among consumers. Those are—-people around the world seem to want value for their money. People want cars to be reliable, not problematic. Some people don’t admit to caring about “image” as far as the car they choose—-but I think in some way, most people ARE concerned about image when they plunk down their money for a car. In fact, even people buying the lowest priced new cars—-might want a particular color or stylish wheels. So I think in China, a good formula will be basically what it is in the U.S. and perhaps in Europe—–make the car as affordable within its segment as it can be. Make it reliable—-with quality engineering and components that don’t cause headaches for owners. And market it as a symbol of intelligence and perhaps status.
Tim said on January 11, 2013
From the beginning of the 60′s until the end of the 90′s European cars were basically built according to what the US customers wanted. Once the Audi, which was the first EU brand that actually started customizing cars specifically for the EU market, with stiffer suspension and high-power diesels the rest of the Euro brands followed with things such as front-wheel drive etc.
I think the big reason why US cars do not exist in Europe (other than a few corvettes) is simply because US Auto-makers have still not grasped what a European driver wants or they feel that they are not able to compete with the current EU brands on their home market.
I think the Chinese will define what they want and what they care for and we might be surprised that it can be something completely different to what we’re used to in the US and the EU. NEVS need to learn what they want and how they want things to be done in order to succeed!
Angelo V. said on January 11, 2013
Tim: I agree with some of this, though not all. I think back to European cars available in America in the 1970s—-cars my Dad looked at. He was a Cadillac guy starting in the 1960s through his last new car purchase, a 1978 Sedan DeVille. He looked at Mercedes and BMW—-and they were far different animals than Cadillac. They were priced in the same general category—-but smaller, less chrome, stiffer ride—-in some ways, sportier (with sliding sunroofs for example). The Volkswagen Beetle was wildly popular in the U.S. and it was like no car offered by an American company. That car was German—-built for Germans. Yet its basic goodness and affordable price made it a huge hit here. Renault, Peugeot—-I don’t think they EVER built cars with Americans as a first priority. It seems to me that many of these cars might have been tweeked for the ones being exported to the U.S.—-but all of them seemed more in tune with European roads, space and drivers than Americans. Audi—-I do think they tried to strike a chord with Americans as far back as the Audi Fox and 5000. And Saab? If they were building cars for Americans, they missed! Their cars were and are cult classics here—-but everything from the front wheel drive to the key between the seats is not American taste or at least it wasn’t decades ago.
Tim said on January 11, 2013
I’m sorry but I dont think I made my self clear. Of course European cars were available in the US but European cars built for the EU-Market were built according to the American standard and not to a European standard… it was sort of a one size fits all and that size was set by the US customers since the US was the biggest market…
Angelo V. said on January 11, 2013
Understood—-but what I was saying was that the European cars that came to the U.S. were not similar to U.S. made cars. So if European makers were trying to build for the U.S.—and also forcing those cars on European buyers—-they didn’t do a great job at making them to an American standard—-at least not a standard of preferences set by the market. If what you’re referring to is safety and other technical standards, I understand that. But if you mean building them to the taste of our market—-realize that GM/Ford/Chrylser and even AMC made bigger cars with cushy rides—-styling that was the opposite of “conservative” with chrome on everything, interior colors like burgundy and green—–interior surfaces like “crushed velour” and styling cues like opera windows. Nothing exported here by Mercedes or BMW looked or acted anything like a Chrysler Cordoba! Looking back—-almost any European sedan from the 1960s and 70s would look more contemporary than many of the American cars of the same period.
SPG900NY said on January 15, 2013
Totally agree. Pretty much anything imported (or, exported) to the US would only sell if Americans had a specific need OR desire for that same product sold elsewhere in the world. Saab was, perhaps, the best example of this. If Americans weren’t making cars for the rest of the world, Europeans were doing the same thing. Why did Saab sell best in the Northeast (and the Pacific Northwest)? They were areas where big rear-wheel drive US cars with low ground clearance and engines up front had issues. The VW Beetle with its engine over driven wheels, and the front-wheel drive revolution sparked by foreign cars were adopted by snow-belt owners because they were common-sense solutions to these issues. Saabs were particularly well-built for these environments. Saab wasn’t “building cars for the US.” If you want to look at it that way, The *US* wasn’t building cars for the US! Little fuel-efficient Japanese 4-bangers weren’t made specifically for the US market in the 70s — US buyers started gobbling them up when the gas crisis started. And again, the US manufacturers took a LONG time to catch on because they weren’t accurately building cars for their own market.
KoGa said on January 11, 2013
I think in Europe pricing is the key. Price new 9-3s like Kias, Hyundais, Chevrolets etc. and they will sell like hotcakes. Price them like BMW 3 series or Audi A4 and it will be a complete failure.
Tim said on January 11, 2013
I completely agree with you, Saab tried to fight with the big 3 Germans once already and failed. Saab needs to be what it was from the start, an affordable, practical and fun to drive car!
wfg said on January 11, 2013
I need to disagree that the new Saab models should be priced like Kias, Hyundais and Cheverolets. Of course my opinion only accounts if they are really manufactured in Sweden! If so they should be priced just where Saab always have been. However, the process of coming up with new models should cut down from app. 12 years to, lets say 6 years. Remember that the spotrwagon of the current 9-3 took ages to get in teh showrooms and I am 100% sure if Saab woudl have been faster with the 9-3 sportcombi, the XWD and the 9-5, Saab woudl still excist happily. Personally, I do not like such cutting of a car models life time as I always considered Saab enduring policy as very attractive particular in the economic and ecologic view, but that is the way markets run.
Tim said on January 11, 2013
Pricing Saab’s the way they’ve always been is pretty undefinable since a new model of Saab’s have always been a lot more expensive than the one it would replace as Saab was trying to become more of a premium brand.
Perhaps and entry level like a top level Kia and a top level which is just under a BMW would be a price range all Saab customers could afford?
wfg said on January 11, 2013
I experienced Saab always slightly above Alfa Romeo and slighly below the respective BMW/Mercedes and Audi (in the later days). Honestly, I would not buy me a Saab that belongs to the Kia, Hyundais, Cheverolet pool as there are already too much competitors and not the area I feel Saab is right there. If the new Saab wants to catch up with its former status, I needs to be priced (and feel) just where I have seen it over the past 20 years of my Saab passion. But, as you also indicated, Saab needs more model lines that ranges from the 1-Series to the 5 Series, if we us the BMW classification. By that you can elaborate your work success by jumping up the model at Saab, if you want that. Again, the key is bringing new model lines far faster than in the past!
A similar “problem” of not bringing enough new models happens with Subaru as there is no obvious reason that they dont sell better – just like in the old Saab days, right?
Angelo V. said on January 11, 2013
Tim: Yes, almost all Saab buyers would be comfortable in that price range—-but I’d stretch it further. The top level Kia car (probably a loaded Optima right now—-and they’re going to introduce a higher end car here soon) stickers in the mid 30s probably—-and can be bought for low 30s. That’s already what Saab 9-3s sell for and that’s fine. But I have a vision where Saab can manufacture a smaller hatchback—-something sized like a Kia Rio or Forte perhaps—but with Saab engineering and Saab quality. So if a Forte hatchback sells in the teens—-I would envision this Saab stickering in the mid 20s ($25,000). This would be a small car—–but a really good small car at a premium price. And really good doesn’t mean leather in every car either. That price could be held down by textile and maybe a few less motors—-manual seat adjusts for example. People are going to ask “Who would buy this?” Why not just get a loaded Kia Forte that has power everything and spend less? Again—-do not underestimate the fact that the Saab name still carries European luxury/sporting image. Young urban buyers would love to have a Saab like this if it’s executed correctly.
Angelo V. said on January 11, 2013
Tim beat me to the punch on this one. Saabs in the 1960s were marketed as “The $2000.00 Car” in the U.S., at a time when most cars were selling well over $3000.00—–3500.00 or more. Volkswagen was the other car priced around $2000.00. (basic Beetle with no options). The 99 upped the ante somewhat—-but was not yet encroaching in “luxury” territory. The early 900s increased over the 99s—-but were still priced like an Oldsmobile or Mercury—-but after that, Saab prices escalated like crazy. Saabs also became more luxurious—–leather, alloys, all sorts of power features, etc. So it’s not that the higher prices weren’t justified—-but they abandoned their original mission, which was a front wheel drive economical car—-with great active safety features (able to plow through snow for example). I have never stated that Saab should now abandon the high end altogether—-but it seems to me their recipe for success absolutely NEEDS to include a model that takes them back to their roots—-a smaller, fun car that many people can afford—–who were not near able to afford the last Saabs.
scand said on January 13, 2013
Price them like kias and hyundais, and they will go broke.
There were reasons they tried ( or had to) to go upmarket: The size of the company, and the cost of manufacturing in Sweden.
Angelo V. said on January 15, 2013
What about sizing some like Minis and pricing them like Minis? If they’ll go broke doing that, they might as well give up now.
Bernard said on January 11, 2013
Is China a “company car” country? One of the biggest differences between the European and American markets is that many Europeans get company cars as part of their compensation packages (I’ve read that this is over 50% of the UK and German markets). That’s almost unheard-of in the US.
I imagine that company car markets are a lot more conservative and patriotic. They are also not as price-sensitive, since a higher price can seem like “better” compensation.
Angelo V. said on January 11, 2013
Bernard: A lot of Americans get cars as part of their employment. There are programs set up—-sometimes an employee has an allowance and can “pick” any car or at least most cars in that price range. Other times, the company has a fleet of vehicles for employee use. In my case (and I’m basically a nobody), I got a brand new Prius but it was sort of assigned to me—-I didn’t have much say in it. Part of that was because to meet a new company initiative, it had to be a hybrid—-and back when I got it (2008) there weren’t nearly as many hybrids. The Ford Escapes were totally sold out and the Chevy Malibu hybrid had not been introduced yet. There was only one new Prius available to our fleet buyer in a three state area—-and I lucked out. It has navigation and some other nice features.
GerritN said on January 11, 2013
We’re just talking about producing the current 9-3 for a couple of years.
It is an old platform and will probably, to keep the investments low, use pretty mediocre engines.
The interior is not on par with what we conceive as premium.
For the last couple of years 9-3′s only sold well if they were heavily discounted.
Saabs have a really bad name right now because of the bankruptcy, lack of parts, general conception, etc.
There is no dealer network to speak of.
Add this all up and it should be clear that NEVS can only move these things if they add something exceptional (like an electric drivetrain) or sell them at prices even below Hyundai and Kia (which offer extremely good value and even start looking attractive). Disclaimer: only valid comment for the US and EU market, I have no idea about the Chinese market. The only thing I know about the Chines market is that it seems to like premium European cars, the 9-3 definitely does not fall in that category.
Angelo V. said on January 11, 2013
Gerrit: Chinese luxury car buyers happen to love Buick too. The Buick is considered a gold standard by many affluent Chinese.
Bernard said on January 11, 2013
Angelo,
The only Buicks that have huge sales in China are the Excelle (based on the old Daewoo Lacetti of Top Gear notoriety), and the confusingly named Excelle XT and GT. Those last two are similar to the US Verano, except that the XT has a hatch.
That’s not a bad thing since the Verano is in the same class as the 9-3. It’s actually built on a platform that Saab rejected for the 9-3 replacement!
The important thing is that Chinese buyers are quite fond of mid-sized sedans.The VW Jetta, Bora, Lavidar, etc are competing mid-sized sedans that also sell in huge quantities.
Buick’s upmarket Chinese cars sell in much smaller numbers. The Regal and LaCrosse are vastly outsold by the A4, 5 Series and A6.
I know that GM – and writers who base their stories on GM press packs – often claim that Buick is a luxury brand in China, but the fact of the matter is that they mostly sell a cheap sub-compact and an affordable mid-size. Chinese luxury buyers have a thing for prestige European brands, as is the case everywhere else, except perhaps Japan.
Angelo V. said on January 11, 2013
http://red-luxury.com/2011/11/22/luxury-car-brands-and-their-chinese-stereotypes/
Bernard: This is interesting reading on the Buick topic. Also, since 1999, Buick is averaging sales of about 250,000 per year in China—-big numbers. So yes, a lot of those sales are on the lower priced Buicks. But they do carry a good brand reputation for the higher end Buicks too. I do think it’s inaccurate to say that in China, they aren’t regarded as a luxury brand. Everywhere I’ve read—-seems to support that they are highly regarded there, not a cheap car.
Bernard said on January 11, 2013
Angelo,
If you look at the actual numbers, the Lacetti/Excelle accounts for about half of Buicks sold in China, and the Verano/Excelle is half of the rest. Their bigger cars and minivans share the remainder, and they don’t sell anywhere near as well as their obvious competitors such as the A6L.
I think that it’s fair to say that Buick is doing very well in China, but they’re not selling the same cars there as in the US. They are predominantly selling downmarket cars.
Same thing with Chevrolet in Russia. Big numbers, but you wouldn’t their lineup.
As I wrote earlier, the good news is that the Chinese market likes mid-sized sedans. The 9-3 has some potential there.
Angelo V. said on January 12, 2013
Again, I’m not disputing that their lower priced cars are what’s selling for them in China (looks to be 75% lower priced and 25% higher priced according to your numbers). But all I’m saying is that the brand is perceived as a luxury brand by the Chinese and has a good reputation. At least that’s according to what I have read as I’ve never been there and don’t know too many people who have lived there. Also—-if you think back to Buick in the U.S., they sold entry level cars like the Skylark and Skyhawk—as well as a minivan (not too long ago). Most of their sales here were on their lower priced cars too—-I wonder how the Verano is doing in the U.S.? Personally, I think the Saab 9-3 is a better product than any current American Buick. I like the Lacrosse and Enclave a lot—-but would probably opt for the old, “outdated” 9-3 if Saab was stable, parts weren’t a concern, etc.
hilmar said on January 11, 2013
I own a 2009 9-3X and the interior is premium, IMO. And that´s what many people said who sat in this car. They didn´t have the impression that this is an old car. People driving Audi, Merc or BMW themselves. Some plastic parts could be changed into aluminum for the future, the interior door handles should be changed, but that´s all. The handling is extraordinary, no rattling, no squeaking. If all 9-3´s would have this quality, an advanced infotainment / Nav system, a facelift, they would sell I think. I don´t wan´t to know how much old technology is used in other so-called premium brands. So go on NEVS I want to replace my Saab into a Saab within a few years.
Angelo V. said on January 11, 2013
I saw a late model 9-3 on the road yesterday—-and looked twice. They are beautiful cars. Old technology or not, if NEVS makes them solid and prices them right, they will sell in every market where they’re offered—-again, and this can’t be overstated—-if they are promoted/advertised correctly.
hilmar said on January 12, 2013
Let us hope …
Dannii said on January 11, 2013
I wish someone with real automotive experience in mainland China would join the board and comment! We are all grasping at straws here and even myself with lots of international experience around the globe (Africa, mainland Europe, former CIS countries and Russia and a bit of Malaysia) am scared to hell to comment about things I know very little about.
3cyl said on January 12, 2013
Yes, but it might be even scarier to face the silent world in which everyone stopped commenting about things they know very little about.
.
Jeff said on January 12, 2013
So true.
Martin T16s said on January 11, 2013
Here in the UK every year we have something called the Boxing Day sales. This is the day after Christmas day when the shops have the biggest sales of the year. People start queuing outside top London stores from midnight to be at the front of the queue to snap up the top brnaded goods to take back to China. This year many stores employed security guards and even had the police out in force to control the crowds, the vast majority of which were……Chinese!. I read a report that the Chinese fly over specifically for the sales to bag the biggest name brands. They are brand crazy and will seem to pay anything to be able to show off a recognised “brand” back home in China. Add to that the rocketing wealth of the Chinese and I think the market is in a league of it,s own. I do not see this brand frenzy in any other market and for that reason you can not really compare it to any other market. I am sure NEVS are already basing their projected sales figures on this phenomenal brand explosion in which the Chinese appear to pay anything to get their hands on a perceived European branded product. This is a market like no other.
BTG88 said on January 11, 2013
As someone who lived in China for 5 years, I can tell you that the brand frenzy, in part, is driven by 1) Consumers wanting to buy a brand that is real (vs. faked), high-quality, safe and has value for money 2) Many Chinese consumers will fly overseas to buy big-ticket items in foreign countries to ensure themselves that they are getting “the real deal”. The Chinese consumer has been screwed by charlatans for so long, that they are very cynical about purchase.
Martin T16s said on January 11, 2013
Unless it is a genuine branded article, which also applies to cars, which are now seen as an important status symbol and a sign of doing well. I am totally convinced that a Saab product designed in Trollhattan, carrying all the quality ethos and history of Saab will be a success in that market.
RS said on January 12, 2013
Amen. THAT is why NEVS needs to have Saab/THN doing their thing, as in making real Swedish cars.
If they go the ‘lets try to make a copy of some other brand’ route it all could fall flat on its face. Original and authentic is the key.
GM got Saab so far away from its roots I hope the engineers of today and especially the Chinese ownership understand what Saab cars is all about. Take the best cues from what has been manufactured over the decades and you end up with one heck of a product, really wide range of engines, variants and trim levels.
I have no problem seeing a base 9-3 1.4 – 1.6 L’s going after VW or the Koreans and on the other hand these 400 hp (hybrids) to handle the premium segment, if NEVS has all that production capacity in the future.
There was a time when Saab was selling affordable -but never cheap garbage- 900′s and expensive 9k turbos side by side without a problem. Had they made a modern and frugal 99 hatch in the late 80′s, sales had probably gone through the roof.
Angelo V. said on January 12, 2013
For some inexplicable reason RS—–Saab determined that they had to abandon the low end to compete on the high end. It doomed them. If they had done what you suggest in your post—-NEVS wouldn’t even be the owner now. Saab would be thriving. But they got it in their heads that they had to ditch affordability for prestige.
Tim said on January 12, 2013
You should know that there was never any money in Saab to develop more than on model at a time and actually barely even that. Saab had to pick which way they wanted to go, it was on or the other… never both, even though they wanted to…
RS said on January 12, 2013
Tim, if this was the case I have to strongly question the leadership of Saab Automobile 25 years ago. Leave out the b and c segment completely and try to finesse selling around 100.000 cars every year with a relatively small profit margin = suicide.
Angelo V. said on January 13, 2013
When Lee Iacocca ran Chrysler, they were bankrupt and borrowing (Eventually paid back on time, with interest). The “K” platform gave them everything from subcompacts, to luxury cars, to minivans. That was the late 1970s. That same platform led to the Dodge Caravan/Plymouth Voyager/Chrysler Town and Country, along with Aries/Reliant, intermediates and luxury cars. Saab couldn’t find a way to make a cheaper car and a more expensive car—-just two—-using one basic platform?????
Chris Hansel said on January 12, 2013
Angelo: that was GM’s decison, to bring Saab in as a high end car. In the U.S. I think you will find most of the old Saab dealers that are still around, and yes, some Caddie dealers, will take on a new agreement if it costs them very little, and allows them to sell and service the older cars. Concern about finding a new dealer network are over done. What they need to be concerned about is selling cars. You are right on with your comments about price, they must bring in these older 9-3s with the right price. There are enough of us loyalists left to buy a few thousand per year at the very worse.
RS said on January 12, 2013
Chris, and the really sad part, they never let Saab even deliver the true high end vehicle…
Wouldn’t the NG 9-5 just been the perfect executive car with a 4 liter twin-turbo engine and top notch interior?
Dannii said on January 12, 2013
+1
Tim said on January 12, 2013
Chris, no this is wrong, it was the Saab managements decision headed by Peter Augustsson in Trollhättan to make Saab a high end car!
Thylmuc said on January 13, 2013
Was it also their decision to stop the hatchbacks? Do you know something about this?
Tim said on January 13, 2013
Yes it was, the management of Saab felt that in early 2000 most luxury brands were going for Sedans and Wagons with high-power diesels and large-displacement gasoline engines.
There actually was a hatch-back version of the 9-3 (2003) model on the drawing board but as we know it never became reality, mostly because the sedan and convertible became way too expensive to produce with more than 40% of the car being Saab unique parts.
Thylmuc said on January 13, 2013
Very interesting information. Since I have the feeling that the loss of the hatchback as a unique selling point for Saabs harmed them quite a bit, I can no longer point my finger at GM in this regard.
Angelo V. said on January 13, 2013
Well, American never did get a Saab diesel. At a time when there was a small (but large enough to help Saab) contingent of Americans wanting a diesel car in the Saab price range—-we never were offered one. Who’s failing was that, GM or Saab Sweden’s management?
3cyl said on January 12, 2013
I keep seeing references to “right price” etc.. Will NEVS have the ability to produce the 9-3 at a far lower cost than in the past so the cars can be priced “right” and still be profitable? Perhaps it is possible as they should not have much invested in develpment costs, but volume won’t be all that great. Decontenting the car to keep price down has beem suggested. Maybe that would work, but isn’t it contrary to NEVS plan to appeal to a more premium market?
Ultimately won’t the price reflect what it costs to produce the car at a realistic volume level, or maybe NEVS will succumb to the time honored SAAB tradition of selling at a loss while they attempt to gain some transaction?
Well, hopefully we will get a chance to see what NEVS thinks the right price is.
Angelo V. said on January 13, 2013
3 Cyl: I’ve been in “Mini” products like the Mini Cooper. And I’ve been in well equipped Kias of the same size. The truth of the matter is that in some ways, the Kias (which cost less) offer more goodies. In contrast, the Minis might seem “decontented.” But there seems to be universal agreement that the Minis are “premium” small cars. In my world—-decontenting a Saab 9-3 to lower the price slightly—–does not take it from “premium” to being a run of the mill product. It’s very difficult to know what NEVS’ options are—-we aren’t even sure what their real plans are at this point (where the cars will be sold, when, etc.). So taking it back to the previous owners—-it would seem to me (a non-expert), the easiest way to drop the price on the last 9-3s would have been to begin with the following: Entry level model gets fabric seating instead of leather. Wheels/Tires could have achieved savings based on size and quality of wheels. Base engine could have been normally aspirated instead of turbo. There’s more—-but that would have been a start. Would this have “compromised” Saab’s image and damaged Saab in some way, to have a low end model? Guys, they’re out of business. It doesn’t get much worse than that. Doing what they were doing hadn’t been working for quite a long time. Trying something different might have helped. My belief is that they needed an entry level MODEL LINE to bring new customers in—-which would have been preferable to taking the 9-3 downmarket. But they stubbornly refused to do that—-leaving the other choice for a lower priced car to be decontenting an existing model.
scand said on January 13, 2013
Decontenting wont work. You can quietly strip out a few behind the scenes things, but not enough to save more than a few dollars here and there.
If you swap from leather to fabric seats, or alloy to steel wheels, the percieved value of the product drops a lot, but the cost by not nearly so much. It costs about the same to make a leather seat as a fabric one, and leather isn’t much more expensive than some fabrics.
If the base car is expensive to make, there is little you can do to change that without a massive redesign.
Angelo V. said on January 13, 2013
Historically, other manufacturers have found a way to do it Scand, so I’m not sure why it’s become impossible. Making a “plain Jane” version of a nicer car has been done since before I was born. There are countless examples—–one off the top of my head was the 1977 Pontiac Grand Prix. We were in a bad economy and the standard version was too expensive for many target buyers. GM took out some content, dropped the price and suddenly had a hot seller. Volkswagen has done it more recently with the Jetta of the 1990s. Not sure why it’s that difficult and I think it was more of a concern about image—-not the inability to do it. You mentioned the perceived value dropping a lot—-I think the braintrust at Saab thought the perceived value of SAAB would drop if they did anything but try to go head-to-head against Audi. Now they’re out of business. Had they listened to reason years ago, they’d still be selling cars.
3cyl said on January 13, 2013
Angelo, as scand points out, the cost of alloys and leather (at least the leather in most cars) over steel and cloth is not too great. (At Tire Rack, a set of snow tires mounted on basic alloy rims is not much greater than the same tires mounted on steel – and that doesn’t include wheel covers/hubcaps for the steel.) I maintain that unless NEVS has a way to produce the 9-3 for less or is willing to sell for no profit, the pricing won’t be “right”. Also, keep in mind that that the actual selling price of 9-3′ s was far less than the Audis etc. it was supposedly competing against and SAAB didn’t make any money. Decontenting a few hundred dollars of materials (or even a couple of thousand) isn’t going to result in a lower selling price than we are used to if NEVS wants to make money.
Angelo V. said on January 13, 2013
A couple thousand dollars off sticker (off invoice to the dealers) would make a world of difference if that is possible to achieve. And if leather is about the same cost as fabric, haven’t car manufacturers been making fools of all of us for so many years. Our family business was in manufacturing of outerwear and other clothing. Not sure how it works with car makers—-but for us, sourcing textile fabric for jackets would be dramatically less expensive than ordering leather. When it comes to Tire Rack, I’ve ordered tires on painted steel wheels that were much less expensive than alloys—-and for that matter, yes, I agree—-cheap alloys are a lot less than high end ones. Again, for that decontented Saab, basic wheels/tires and fabric upholstery would save a few bucks, as would a normally aspirated engine. They could do away with some power accessories too and still find eager buyers. If in fact—-none of this would have any impact—-then they need a new smaller car that costs thousands less. It’s do or die—-and what they did previously—-their “do” led to death.
David Lawrence said on January 12, 2013
I’ve been silently following for months, waiting to read the final chapter, something along the lines of NEVS failing to secure adequate funding, and the SAAB facilities being turned into a shopping mall or casino.
I am still not allowing myself to indulge in the excitement of a production restart, since the chances of seeing any of those first 60000 units in my area of the world (Northeast USA) are zero.
That said, it is likely true that 6 months ago any chance of a SAAB reentry into this market was zero. Now, it is probably greater than zero. That positive slope in the probability curve is heartwarming.
Just last night, driving the 03 9-5 home at night, I was noticing that after 9 years and 93K miles (= ~ 130k km) driving over twisting, beat up wintry New England roads, there was not a trace of a rattle. The ride is still pretty much the same as new, controlled, taut, agile, but still comfortable and dignified.
The best marketing line SAAB ever had (IMHO) went something like (if I recall correctly) “Most of the people who drive a SAAB, buy one”. It was so, so true. I bought my first one after riding – in the BACK seat no less – of a friends 99 turbo.
SAAB was repeatedly pilloried in this country for having “dated designs that still perform very well”. I never understood the criticism. If the designs performed so well, (as in better than newer cars with more dashboard gadgets), what was there to criticize?
But that, coupled with the disaster known as the “new 900″, and being tarred with the GM brush was the start of the death spiral. As said earlier in this thread. SAAB wasn’t killed in 2011. It was killed 25 years earlier when GM got involved. Those of us who knew this rushed out and bought the last of orignial 900′s before GM could destroy it.
So as I mentioned earlier, in my informed laymans opinion, SAAB’s customers at the time, many of whom probably wanted to stay loyal ran in 3 directions after GM appeard: Audi, BMW and Subaru. If you think about it this makes sense. For a brief time, SAAB was able to build a car that incorporated Audi sophistication and polish, BMW performance with Subaru practicality. Then they lost it.
Personally, in light of the last 5 years of economic doom and gloom, I feel there is a growing number of poeple who find the SUV (4×4) are over the top in size, fuel consumption and general ostentatiousness, and would happily look at a well-designed wagon (estate). We have 2 9-5′s, and it is the SportKombi that gets all the notice. The SportKombi is still worth about $1,000 more than the same sedan.
The 10-year old 9-3 SportKombi is no less eye-catching today. If they want to update it, all they would need to do is update the navigation/radio display, add in LED lights (including those white daytime lights everyone seems to need) and they are off to the races. I think that would do well here as long as they don’t say “Born from jets” again.
But this is all enouraging. I have another 5 or 6 years with the 03. Hopefully by then I will have a SAAB dealer to return to.
Angelo V. said on January 12, 2013
David: How right you are on the advertising messages. The “Born From Jets” campaign was silly beyond belief—-pretentious, self-absorbed, even bloated—-everything Saab is NOT and has never been. That other campaign you’re referring to, “People who drive a Saab buy one.” (or words to that affect) was brilliant. That captured the “simplicity of confidence/confidence of simplicity” of Saab perfectly. It was also true—-if you could get potential buyers into showrooms and behind the wheel, you’d make the sale most of the time. If I recall, that campaign was during the GM era—-one of the things they got right. My ’04 9-5 wagon, while not nearly as high mileage as your Saab—-is still going on 9 years old and is tight as a drum—-no rattles. It drives straight on center, smooth—-handles like the day it was built. Changing from the stock Pierellis to Michelins was the smartest car money I’ve ever spent—-made the car like new again, maybe better. Oh, and on your other comment—-statistically, we really don’t know for sure where Saab owners are going, or will go—-when they need a new car. I happen to think more of them from your neck of the woods will go to Subaru then to the others you mentioned. Some might go to Mazda. If NEVS comes through for us, maybe these people will hold their Saabs long enough to not have to leave at all. That crystalizes my frustration with NEVS lack of communication/public outreach—–if they could or would come out strongly with “future plan to return to North America” I am positive that some current Saab enthusiasts would go out of their way to hold onto their Saab to wait for that day—-or buy a used Saab to bridge the gap. With complete uncertainty and no real overtures for NEVS to bring Saab back???? These people (me included) will find other brands—-and maybe build some loyalty elsewhere—-and when/if Saab does come back, we’ll be in other cars, with little interest left. Speak NEVS, speak!
scand said on January 13, 2013
While that ‘born from jets’ tag line was corny beyond belief ( it always reminded me of that song: “born to be alive” ) it is the one Saab ad tag line that most people remember, and furthermore, associate with Saab.
So, from a pure advertising awareness standpoint, it was a massive success.
Angelo V. said on January 13, 2013
There’s “famous” and then there’s “infamous.” If you’re in the camp that believes any publicity is good publicity, than it’s true that “Born From Jets” was successful. But it was a collassal failure for selling cars and in the end, that’s what really mattered. This wasn’t a public awareness campaign like “stop smoking.” It was supposed to get people into Saab showrooms (I think???). In that regard, what a loser.
scand said on January 13, 2013
Dear david, the first half of your post extols the virtues of your 03 (GM!) 9-5, and then the second half says Saab went all to pot when GM got involved!
My head is spinning!
David Lawrence said on January 13, 2013
Hmm, good point. I was trying to say that the “new” 900. the rebadged Vauxhall, did all the damage. l guess I was thinking that with the 9-5 they did a great job given the constraints, and they started to recover a bit. from the new 900 fiasco. I recall the 9-5 was well received, but then it was starved of investment. It’s actually the post facelift 08 9-5 that I prefer.The 07 facelift should have been a new model, not just a facelift, as we have discussed here. Sorry for the head-spinning. Maybe it makes sense??
Tim said on January 13, 2013
Well you should know that the New900 and 1 gen 9-3 in so many ways saved Saab. When GM bought Saab it was a company with huge losses and a very old product portfolio. Saab needed an every-day back to the roots kind of car that most people could afford. One should remember that that 9000 was forced to be sold at 10% higher cost than initially thought due to higher development costs. GM wanted Saab to make a car that would stay within the budget frame and that would again became a people car. And even though it had to borrow a lot of parts from its sister companies within GM, it still is one of the very few cars Saab ever made that actually made a profit for the company…
And I still se huge amounts of 900′s/9-3′s rolling around on the streets today with happy owners, I myself had one for 10 years and I really loved the car! It felt and was a true Saab!
Angelo V. said on January 13, 2013
I agree. Don’t get me wrong—-I understand David’s points about GM’s stewardship of Saab and the platform sharing (which tends to dilute a product). But a couple things: 1) Platform sharing of one sort or another is a reality that isn’t going away anytime soon for most manufacturers of mass production cars that people can afford. 2) GM era Saabs—-are good cars. If we put aside for a moment, the “true” Saabs vs. GM Saabs argument and just isolate the GM era Saabs versus their contemporary competitors—-the GM Saabs hold up quite well. In fact, even if you compare them to the previous “independent” Saabs, in some models, reliability was improved, parts easier to source, repairs (comparitively) less expensive. Some say the cars of the GM era are easier to work on. I’m not an auto tech, so I don’t know if that’s true. My guess is that there is more familiarity with the GM era Saabs, which makes them SEEM easier to work on. The cars were good—-even the Saabaru 9-2 and the 9-7, which was a better, more refined vehicle than the GM stablemates it was derived from. At every turn—-Saab engineers seemed able to take the existing product and tweek it to milk improvements out of it—–in form AND function.
David Lawrence said on January 13, 2013
Point taken, but in this market, the New900 and the 9-3 v 1 to us were a pale imitation of what they replaced. It is also hard to explain the deep antipathy towards GM in this country among people who when spending that kind of money want something more than a rolling cup-holder. SAAB was the antithesis if that. It may have been an accounting success, but the line from the OG 900 to the New felt like Saab had been wrung through the same sausage mill of homogenization that GM did to all of their other brands. In 2007-9 the market finally caught up to them.
Bear in mind that, GM sold cars in the domestic USA market that would have been laughed right out of Europe (Just look up the American Chevy Cavalier, Chevette or Citation, for example). So we here saw and felt SAAB was headed the same way.
Agree that platform sharing is a fact of life. But I did test drive a 1 gen 9-3/900 and tried like anything to like it. I don’t know whether it was the cable clutch or the bland interior, but I walked away saddened by the experience, and bought a Peugoet instead (I was in the UK at the time)
Dannii said on January 13, 2013
Why is VAG making so much money to the bottom life with platform sharing (VW Golf, Jetta/Bora/Skoda/Seat/Audi) and others fail miserably?
Angelo V. said on January 13, 2013
More affordable vehicles? Better marketing? Smarter management?
Tim said on January 13, 2013
That is a very good question
David Lawrence said on January 14, 2013
Volume
Angelo V. said on January 15, 2013
Chicken or the egg? In my world, offering a good car at a value price will lead to volume.
Thylmuc said on January 13, 2013
From statistics I had seen, i agree with both of you. The 900 II/9-3 I was an important car, but the 900 II was hasted to the market; and a lot of reliability problems that showed up in the statistics were only solved by the 9-3 I.
And while most of the 9-3s still seem to run, the 900 II is getting quite rare now; more than I would expect from the cars being older alone.
belgian_roadster from Eupen, DG said on January 12, 2013
as some said long time ago: the Griffin will raise from it’s ashes stronger then ever.
Really hope he is right !
Angelo V. said on January 13, 2013
Actually, I think the Griffin itself will be in mothballs, or at least it won’t be seen on any new Saab cars.
Francois said on January 20, 2013
First of all, Hello folks
I’m new member and posting here for the 1st time
I’m French and owner of a SAAB 9-3 BioPower for a bit more than 2 years already
@Tim
I appologize to post a bit outside of the subject, but I’ve read what you’ve written about E85 in Sweden with great interest
France is over 80% depend upon…….diesel 
And you are absolutely right, without any Government strong commitment, E85 wouldn’t have developped that much, despite the fact that it’s an interesting alternative fuel that can be produced from biomass
Kai Johan Jiang, NEVS’s owner, is also involved in NBE Sweden AB which is going to produce cellulosic ethanol in Sweden as I’ve learned lately
Unfortunately, I’ve learned from Mikael Ostlund recently by e-mail, that there isn’t any project of relaunching BioPower versions of the 9-3 which will probably be produced again at the end of summer this year, and it’s a pity
In France, E85 was introduced in early 2007 and there are presently just 300 stations distributing it around the country (exept in the Center which is a desert).
However the Government didn’t really show the willingness to create the proper environment to ensure its development and as a consequence it remains a marginal energy product
This situation has lead to poor sales of Flex-fuel vehicles in France and most car makers have withdrawn Flex-fuel models from their respective range, including Volvo
I hope this is just temporary, but who knows ??? …
Electric vehicles might be more successful on the French market however
Several companies such as hypermarkets chain E. Leclerc, Schneider Electric, and others are working to develop the “fuel” infrastructure 
So, I think that NEVS have chances to be successful on this market which is developing worldwide 
Maybe thanks to nuclear lobbys
Renault has developped a range of vehicles which is already available and Government offers subsequent incentives for their purchase, with a 7000€ bonus (4000€ on hybrid vehicles)
Future will tell us
Best regards