New rules on emissions will govern new engines
January 28, 2013 in Technical
Saab 9-5 Hirsch Dual Exhaust
Saab’s previous engines the 1,8t and 2,0t used in the 9-3 until 2010 were certified according to Euro 4 and Euro 5 requirements.
The different regulatory bodies in the world are today working on a harmonization system in which more or less the same regulations would be used all over the world, making development of engines much easier and to say the least, cheaper for auto-manufacturers.
About two weeks ago I contacted two sources to find out more about what requirements were in place right now and what a gasoline or diesel engine would have to achieve in terms of emissions compared to what they did before.
What I found out was very interesting. The current legislation currently in force since mid summer 2012 is the Euro 5B+ and in terms of pure emissions there isn’t really any significant difference is values compared to when the above mentioned engines were in use with Saab Automobile AB.
The big difference now is the measuring of certain peak values and that the car should achieve similar values in everyday use as it did during testing. These values should also be available through ODB-readout during maintenance or check-ups. Thus identifying any malfunctions in the catalytic system or engine. Certain peak values are programmed to be observed and reported.
This is however only the first step. As a continuation of decreasing emissions from gasoline cars, a similar particle filter to that fitted on diesel cars a few years ago will become reality on cars with a spark-ignition system (gasoline driven cars). Legislation usually refers to either spark or compression ignition (SI or CI). Compression ignition being diesel cars of sometimes a form of LPG driven cars.
These particle filters will most likely find themselves into cars within a year or two and will of course increase the cost of the car, but only slightly. The aim of the regulations issued by Canada, United States (including California) and the European Union is that these filters only be a temporary solution as development of SI engines with direct injection fuel-systems will advance enough, rendering these filters un-neccessary in 5-8 years.
We have heard from different sources that Saab is currently working on a gasoline or diesel engine for the re-launch of the 9-3. We have also heard that the engines should be ones that have been used before by Saab Automobile AB. The latest information we’ve received that it is in fact a previously used engine with a Bosch Engine Management System and since the new engines used in the new 9-5 and 9-3 Griffin were the first Saabs with the new GM ECU we can now be certain that it would not be the new engine developed by GM finding its way back into the new updated version of the 9-3, manufactured by NEVS.
What Saab will most likely be forced to do however is to re-certify the engine since according to the Swedish Transport Agency, the old engine certificate was only applicable to the bankrupt Saab Automobile AB. The transportation agency official also confirmed that the requirements which that engine needs to pass is Euro 5B+ which in reality shouldn’t be a problem considering that it had already passed Euro 5. What is missing though is the monitoring system which need to be developed and implemented into the engines.
SaabLife said on January 28, 2013
So concerning the concerning the regulations in China……are there any? (Seriously though, I’ve been there and it seems like as long as the car isn’t on fire, it’s good to go.)
SaabLife said on January 28, 2013
*ignore my ipad grammar.
TurboLover said on January 28, 2013
They use the EU-ones, but lag a couple of years behind
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emission_standard#China
Bob Clark said on January 28, 2013
So, for us laymen, what past-generation Saab engines do you think they might have in mind? What models were they in?
Tim said on January 28, 2013
I’d say the engines that were used by Saab in 2010. The Trionic8 1,8t and 2,0t as a gasoline engine or the 1,9 TTiD. We still dont know if there will be only a diesel engine or also a gasoline engine available.
Alan Tsao said on January 28, 2013
It was sad not to used GM direct injection engine which is performed very well and very competitive with competitors.
Angelo V. said on January 28, 2013
Yep, the cost will go up and there will be another component to go bad and fail inspection. Hurray. And when Mexico, China and India embrace these “standards” then maybe we’ll all save the Earth for turning into a fireball.
SaabLife said on January 28, 2013
That’s if things actually get off the ground.
http://ttela.se/ekonomi/naringsliv/1.1918176-fordonsforskare-tror-inte-pa-nevs
TurboLover said on January 28, 2013
Well Nevs will have anything from ICE-cars to hybrids and pure electric ones. Just like any other manufacturer. Bur ofcource, Nevs has a harder fight to survive and develop if you compare with say BMW or Toyota, but you don not need a professor to understand that…
Bob Clark said on January 28, 2013
For those who can’t read Swedish, the short piece the other side of this link says:
Vehicles Scientists do not believe in Nevs
Nevs electric car plans judged now by the German automotive researchers. Chances for success are not great, says Ferdinand Dudenhoeffer in a new interview. The Bloomberg News whose Dudenhoeffer, who is a professor at the University of Duisburg-Essen, comment Nevs aims to produce 120 000 cars in 2016.The figure comes from the letter TTELA previously reported: a tender to around 500 by Saab’s former subcontractors from Nevs about getting started production of conventional 9-3 again. The idea is that the car will be built in the year 2014, the first roll out from Stallbacka and two years later the number of Saabs produced will be up to 120,000 per year.
In China, it is very difficult to sell electric cars, says Dudenhoeffer.
So: more doom, gloom and doubt from a source that has consistently been this way! Keep the faith!
Tim said on January 28, 2013
You know Bob, that Ferdinand Dudenhoeffer takes every chance he gets for being in the media, he is very controversial and so far its very seldom that his predictions are right…
I find it amazing that reporters even listen to him but sadly its very seldom the same reporter interviewing him twice and few do back-ground checks on that guy.
I wouldn’t pay too much attention to him as attention is the only thing he is after…
theSandySaab said on January 28, 2013
Oh No, not that Dude Dudenhoeffer, again…
He is the most annoying, self-important, arrogant “Industry Expert” I’ve ever heard of.
He only states the obvious, or comes with complete misnomers, I wouldn’t put a dime in his hat…
Bob Clark said on January 28, 2013
Tim, my point precisely! TTELA give him coverage and we read predictions of doom and gloom. I, however, prefer to think that the people running NEVS know what they are doing and did not buy Saab just to please us enthusiasts! As I say, keep the faith …. only time will tell.
Angelo V. said on January 28, 2013
Well, truth be told, China isn’t the only place where it’s “difficult to sell electric cars.” It’s difficult to sell electric cars ANYWHERE, except maybe on golf courses. That’s the rub—-if NEVS’ business plan settles on electric only, Saab will be out of business again, probably quickly, if it even gets off the ground. If they pursue gas and diesel options beyond the old 9-3, they might have a chance, depending on a lot of other factors (pricing, promotion, distribution, product positioning, etc.).
Tim said on January 28, 2013
And what about Norway? E-Cars are selling very well there?
Angelo V. said on January 28, 2013
Tim: They might be selling well in Portland, Oregon too and maybe in Iceland for all I know. There are pockets here and there—-but seriously—–you’re holding up Norway as proof that there’s going to be an electric car revolution in countries where millions of cars are sold? What is their annual volume of car sales anyway?
Red J said on January 28, 2013
Angelo,
when european politicians start banning ICE cars from the cities you will see more EVs.
Currently an ICE car is less expensive and gives you more range freedom than an EV, but you will see this change in 5 till 10 years.
Tim said on January 28, 2013
I totally agree Red!
Angelo you are thinking right now and right where you are, you need to widen your perspective and realize that NEVS doesn’t need to sell a million EV’s, they only need to sell 50-70’000 per year and an equal amount of conventional fuel cars and they would have reached their goals. With future legislation coming up in Europe and other parts of the world making it too expensive to operate a conventional car in the cities EV’s will be a hit. It already has in cities like Oslo for example… which is only the first step!
Angelo V. said on January 28, 2013
Yes, understood. But consider that cooler heads might also prevail—-and when enough people are fed up with paying a premium—-and getting cars that aren’t nearly as capable as the ones they’re driving—-in affect, being railroaded into going backwards instead of forwards, over a fantasy about the weather—-there could very well be a revolt that will throw out the extremists who are forcing this “plan” of action. I guess we shall see—-but with China’s electricity primarily generated by coal powered plants (they’re building them as fast as we’re closing them in the U.S.—-our stupidity by the way), electric cars aren’t as “green” as the hypocritical politicians would have us believe.
Rune said on January 28, 2013
FWIW, some numbers concerning Norway:
http://www.elbil.no/elbiler/809-norge-pa-solvplass-i-em-i-elbilsalg claim that Norway beat Germany in number of EVs sold (2561 vs 2523 in the first 8 months of 2012). Quite impressive given that Norway only have 5 million citizens… (i.e. 16 times as many EVs were sold in Norway — if measured per capita)
http://e24.no/bil/bra-drag-i-bilsalget/20307787 says 128.598 new registrations in 2012 (does not include December) in Norway. I.e. roughly 2% of vehicles registered are EVs.
BTW: In Norway everything is extremely expensive, except electrical power. (at least that was the situation last year) Gasoline OTOH costs more than $2.5 per liter. I’m tempted to say that walking is cheap, but shoes are also expensive. You cannot win.
RS said on January 28, 2013
Pretty ”interesting” comments under this TTELA article also. Like the one guys who has been hating Saabs for decades because he -allegedly- had a bad transmission experience 30 years ago with a new 900.
Makes you wonder…
Tim said on January 28, 2013
I always say that the last idiot has not yet been born =P
Red J said on January 28, 2013
I remember to hear similar sentences some years ago, when French car manufacturers introduced the first particulate filter. German car manufacturers said at that time, that their Diesel engines were superior, and that they would be able to reach the particulate limits only with changes on the inner combustion. Three years later all German cars started using particulate filters. If they start using particulate filter those filters will stay.
theSandySaab said on January 28, 2013
Interesting information. Is my understanding correct? to say:
1) NEVS will (try to) produce diesel (gasoline?) turbo ICE propelled car (new 9-3) as a stop gap (?) measure.
2) the latest engine design from GM with DI is not available/desirable (?)
3) a previous engine block will be used but with modernized/updated heads/injection system & ECU/T8, all 4 cyl.
4) these drivetrains will be developed in-house by NEVS / SAAB, with components from BOSCH and others?
While I’d love to purchase a new Saab Vert in a year or two (electric or ICE or even hybrid), it still seems like a costly adventure fro NEVS, to redevelop an “old” engine for a limited production run…
Wiki also reveals rights to T5, T7 was sold to BAIC while T8 seems to have remained with Spyker/NEVS???
ivo 71 said on January 28, 2013
The obvious solution: NEVS having a largely Chinese background anyway, they may well buy these engines from BAIC and adapt them -or have them adapted- to suit their own standards, perhaps even jointly with BAIC. Joint cost = cheaper end product and better selling prospects. I know BAIC is or will be a de facto competitor for NEVS but, on the other hand, the Chinese are nothing if not pragmatic. If BAIC can have the disposal of 5B+ engines for their own products then that may considerably improve their future chances on other than Chinese/Asian markets, i.e. Europe, Australia, the Americas and so on.
Tim said on January 28, 2013
They wont buy engines from BAIC, those engines are way too old. We’re talking about Trionic 8 or newer…
Grumpy said on January 28, 2013
Well, it is time they start looking at this globally it seems ridiculus that the EU and US have not been able to agree on a comoon standard…. hmm, I just realized that applies to almost everything doesn’t it.
Anyway, the emissions levels set in the past have been just as much to make politicians look good as to actually reduce the emissions. Look at the Saab 2.3l engine now obsolete and no longer produced. It still performs better on consumption than new Saab engines. My parent’s own a 2.3 9-5 Areo Automatic and I a 2.0 9-3 manual and they still manage almost a liter better than I do on long haul drives. Surely something is wrong, and is not my lead foot.
Tim said on January 28, 2013
You’re right. My 9-5 Griffin from 2010 with its 10 year old T7 engine has much lower fc than my girlfriends 2009 9-3 Aero. Especially when running on E85.
Whats more interesting is that once we tuned her 9-3 with Maptun stage one, the fc dropped 8% measured on E85 at the pump.
So the software in the original clearly need some more work
TonymacUK said on January 28, 2013
My diesel 9-3 also does slightly better on fuel consumption since the Maptun stage 1 – though only by about 2%.
Silas said on January 28, 2013
I am curious what fc numbers actually are. My 2007 9-5 Aero SC averages 21 mpg and I’ve gotten 30 mpg once going around 50 mph with a slight downhill slope.
TonymacUK said on January 28, 2013
I can only speak for the TTid in my SC, but I am doing 38 -42 mpg between fills (full tank) and get around 56mpg on a motorway run at 65 -75 mph.
xelav said on January 28, 2013
In “süddeutsche zeitung” was an article that in a few years no electric cars will be found due to low range mileage and lack of infra structure for charging those cars. What happend to the former plans with the BMW 1.6 and 2.0 engine. There was already some test time with it at Saab under VM. Wouldn’t it be cheaper to go that path? They are clean , lean and legislated .
Tim said on January 28, 2013
Well electric cars are already here so who ever wrote that article need to update his facts…
xelav said on January 28, 2013
Well, it’s not a matter of being already here, but more that in Germany a lot of electric car projects will be no longer stimulated and supported by the government . Perhaps nevs can change this..
Tim said on January 28, 2013
The financial crisis hitting every sector it seams.
The more electric projects that are canceled the better it is for NEVS, its not a matter of if but when electric cars will become a serious part of our transport sector. Electric cars will not replace all gasoline driven cars but will act as a complement, most families with the kind of money to purchase such a car has two cars already, they, as would I replace one of our cars for an electric car not because it is the right thing to do, because its economical. But no doubt, the gasoline driven cars will still be around for a long time…
TurboLover said on January 28, 2013
I partly agree Tim, As it stands now it is hard to see the economical benefits for buying an electric car due to high purchace prise. If say a Nissan Leaf would cost 15.000 Euro instead of 30.000 as it is today this would change.
For Nevs to succeed they need more range and/or less cost than todays electrical cars. Or of cource a ban on ICE-cars in a city like Bejing.
Red J said on January 28, 2013
The EU has launched an alternative Fuel strategy, that will force the EU countries to set up a bigger amount of charging stations.
http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-13-40_en.htm
And regarding Germany, as long as you can’t buy an EV with a German badge, people will not buy EVs in Germany.
TurboLover said on January 28, 2013
True enough, but German badge or not; You still get a worse car for more money if you go all electric. Will the i3 be any differnt from that?
Red J said on January 28, 2013
I think an EV car is a worse car only from the max. range point of view. I accept that, but cities (Hallo Beijing!!!) would more human friendly if a big part of the ICE cars driving around in cities would be replaced by electric cars.
The i3 will be a city car, with an still unknown range and space for 4. I don’t think the i3 will be a game changer, but mostly because the battery tech is still not that far, but maybe when the i3 Mk ii hits the road, the range of an electric car will be fine for most of us in 90 % of the cases.
Angelo V. said on January 28, 2013
What about for towing?
Red J said on January 28, 2013
You normally have better towing capabilities with an e-engine, as you get the full torque from rpm 0.
Bernard said on January 28, 2013
xelav, there’s no more need for subsidies. The big German groups either have electrics in production (Mercedes/Smart), coming out this year (BMW), or early next year (VAG). They are past the point where they need state-supplied R&D support.
The electric market is still small, but it doubled each of the past two years, and it may do even better this year. Renault, M-B and BMW are releasing models that are clearly targeted at the urban leading-edge of the mass market, with competitive prices.
Angelo V. said on January 28, 2013
In the U.S., the subsidies to move this crap off dealer lots are aimed at buyers. Something like $7500.00 tax breaks if you’re willing to buy one. Not sure about R&D, except for the administration blanketing Fiskar in money—-U.S. taxpayers helping create jobs in Finland???
Red J said on January 28, 2013
Bernard,
the German trio take every cent they can get, no matter if they need it or not. 8-/
TurboLover said on January 28, 2013
Nevs will develop an engine, OK. BUT were will it be produced=? Remember, Saab AAB sold the engine factory in Södertälje to Scania. Will BAIC produce the engine maybe? One thing must be clear: They can not build an engine assembly plant in 6 months.
baas900i said on January 28, 2013
lots of capacity at the holden engine plant in melbourne…
Tim said on January 28, 2013
Saab has the capability to produce the engine in-house in Trollhättan. Forget BAIC…
TTAero said on January 28, 2013
Ok, cool. But when was engines produced in thn at saab location the last time?
The engine blocks needs to be moulded somewhere. I thought that was a rather big operation.
Åke R Bock said on February 1, 2013
Interesting. When I worked at Saab Powertrain some ten year ago, the production and development was in Södertälje. My project (440, the new 9-3) got the L850 engine from GM (common GM engine, also found in Saturn for example) were not made in Södertälje. When the old 9-5 died, Saab sold the factory in Södertälje to Scania, the test rigs where sold to AVL and Saab was totally dependent on GM to supply engines. I wonder where in Thn this secret engine factory is hidden….
Tim said on February 2, 2013
There were talks back in 2008 already to move engine production completely to Trollhättan and to do the whole engine construction in-house. Saab did the final assembly of the engine at home. The facility in Trollhättan certainly has the space to pull it off, its more a matter of investment from what I’ve heard.
I was working at Saab in Trollhättan at the same time with the issues we had with the F40 gearbox in the 440… The germans had some trouble getting the things to work as well as the guys in Gothenburg…
aa said on January 28, 2013
Time to dust of those Trionic ECUs
theSandySaab said on January 28, 2013
EVs will not completely replace ICE, the change will be gradual and ever more convincing.
This explains my take on the whole situation in the words of Bill Destler:
www (dot) huffingtonpost.com/bill-destler/electric-cars_b_1929481.html
Vagabond said on January 28, 2013
Din Saab, dit vall, dit service. How’s my Finnish?
Tim said on January 28, 2013
That sounds more like Danish, Swedish or Norwegian but absolutely no Finnish in that =P
Vagabond said on January 28, 2013
Hey! Speaking of exhaust emissions. I registered with Saab Cars N.A. some days ago. Today, FedEx just delivered at my door a bottle of Saab Leather Conditioner..free gift from SCNA. What a bunch of nice guys! I’m telling yuh! I wasn’t even expecting anything. So don’t be a chump, go ahead and register.!!
xelav said on January 28, 2013
So, the idea of the BMW engines is totally out of the picture?
Thylmuc said on January 29, 2013
This is only out of topic on first sight:
http://www.motor-talk.de/news/brennstoffzelle-alle-fuer-eine-und-eine-fuer-alle-t4378093.html
In this German language article, a cooperation between Daimler, Ford and Nissan on the co-development of fuel cells is announced. Apparently, one consequence of this cooperation well be that the planned B class with fuel cell+electric motor will be postponed. As some of you might recall, this B class was initially announced for 2014, iirc. Now, the new schedule seems to be about 2017.
A fuel cell car will be a direct competitor to Saab’s battery storage cars. What this will mean for Saab however, remains to be seen.
Red J said on January 29, 2013
In 2000 GM promised to bring a fuel-cell car to market in 2004. They are still figuring out how to solve some real-life problems.