Indian and Chinese interest in Saab Cars / NEVS

Skärmavbild 2014-06-16 kl. 21.51.06

 Dongfeng logotype

 

Skärmavbild 2014-06-16 kl. 21.58.39

Mahindra logotype 

 

 

For some days now SaabsUnited have been aware of the two possible new owners/partners/collaborators to Saab Cars. We have decided to lay low with this information since it could potentially hurt the negotiations. SaabsUnited has always had the making of Saab cars in Trollhättan made and designed by Swedish know-how a top priority.

Today the SvD reporter Jonas Fröberg has published an article revealing the two parties interested in Saab, They are Mahindra and Dongfeng.

Mahindra is interested in becoming an owner to a certain percentage. SU sources mention a percentage over 50%. Dongfeng primarily wants to get in on the Phoenix platform. Mr. Fröberg thinks it is odd since Dongfeng bought 14% of the french PSA group for little over 1 billion dollars half a year ago. Dongfeng makes a wide variety of both in house as well as “license” PSA products.

Skärmavbild 2014-06-16 kl. 21.54.28

Some of Dongfengs cars

Mihandra a big indian conglomerate with som 180000 people. They are big in various machinery and make two electrical vehicles as well as the Ssangyong SUV brand. The indian company has an competitor within the borders of the country and that is TATA Motors. A successful company now running luxury brands Jaguar and Land Rover. Mahindra might want to copy that concept, turning Saab into the prestige brand it should be. There is overcapacity of “standard” cars in europe but not for luxury and “boutique” models. The relatively small production facility in Trollhättan might be just perfect. I guess the economy could be good for 75000 car/ year in the 65000+ dollars category. The former owners of SAAB as well as founders way back the Wallenberg Business Empire with SEB Bank and SAAB AB (aircrafts, submarines, military systems), has according to Fröberg good old connections with Mr. Anand Mahindra. This could potentially be very helpful since SAAB AB does not want any publicity that is negative and involving the word SAAB in any way to disturb right now. An informant told me that Dassault French makers of fighter-jets competing with SAABs 39 Gripen on the world scene has shamefully used the trouble in Saab Automobile in smearing the Saab name. Same french company hiring burglars to try to open hotel safety boxes for Saab AB businessmen. (but that is another story). A key question is the rights to the SAAB name on automobiles and I would guess this is the hardest issue to solv. Saab AB does not want any more negative writings, that could be negative for the arms sale.

“We do not comment who we are talking to, but it is two asian vehicle manufacturers. We negotiate / talk, ownership and development of the Phoenix Platform”

– Mr. Mikael Östlund says this to SvD reporter Jonas Fröberg.

Skärmavbild 2014-06-16 kl. 21.59.51

Mahindra XUV 500 Sportz

So my guess is that there is a solution for future car manufacturing in Trollhättan that we can write about here at SaabsUnited before the end of this month. Or why not come with a great Midsummer Nights surprise on thursday before Sweden closes down for a 3 day holiday by many regarded as more important then christmas. A Midsummer present to the Saab World please!

Link to SvD Jonas Fröbergs article :http://blog.svd.se/frobergsbilar/2014/06/16/dongfeng-och-mahindra-vill-at-nevs/

Bravada from GMI
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Brilliant news (and I wonder if Dongfeng has any strategy at all, or are they just a mock “competitor” to Mahindra in this running), but $65K is pushing it. Saab has barely ever been in this territory. $30-50K is more likely, if we have to talk dollars. Or more like EUR 20-40K.

Legally Saab
Member
2 years 3 months ago
Yes! In my vision for Saab, I would also prefer Saab to become (or rather stay) a smart-premium brand – and become even smarter! For me the Saab brand stands for innovation, intelligent solutions, modern design and more recently also cutting edge green technology. A good product will always sell! I think very few Saab fans would identify themselves with the kind of macho testosterone and bling-bling preferences that would fit many owners of luxury cars with aggressive design. (Why design angry cars?) The day I see a Saab featured in a rap video, is the day I would stop… Read more »
Silas
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Did you miss the rap video posted a year or so ago about Saab?

Thylmuc
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Look at the Tesla prices. Most of that money goes into the battery. Even with a smaller car, any Saab will not be much cheaper, that is, if they are going to offer a comparable battery (let’s say 80 kWh).

Angelo V.
Member
2 years 3 months ago

That’s why pure EV is a bad idea. The Chevy Volt sells for tens of thousands less than Tesla and is far more versatile, can be driven cross country. “Saabize” a car like that and it would be far superior to any pure EV. Better yet, let’s continue with ICE and turbo technology—-the world still has plenty of fuel for that.

Mailr
Member
2 years 3 months ago
I don’t agree. There are two factors here, peak oil problems are just around the corner, but the effect will not be felt so much in rich countries, the other is that both solar power and battery prices are dropping fairly fast. This will change the cost relations. There are a couple of other, minor, things as well, but those two things will change the game. Of course, if an engine with significant real fuel efficiency gains comes along, the point in time will be pushed further into the future, but the change will come. But, of course, switching to… Read more »
Angelo V.
Member
2 years 3 months ago

So do you believe that in 5 years, manufacturers will be selling more EVs than ICE cars? The percentage of EV sales now is so minute—-it would take something epic for EVs to suddenly be more than 50% of new car sales in 5 years. Is it possible? I believe anything is possible. But I’m having trouble visualizing the scenario in which our oil and gas supply will be so impacted—-that we are forced to rape the earth to mine the materials for batteries for all these millions of new cars.

phermansson
Member
2 years 3 months ago

In Europe the environmental requirement will get a lot togher very soon, thats a 800’000 million people market not including turkey (75 million) who is pushing hard for less emissions. There is a reason why all EU manufacturers are spending huge money in electric cars right now! There is a reason why Mercedes bailed out Tesla when it was about to go bankrupt, everyone wants access to the tech

Mailr
Member
2 years 3 months ago

I soften it a bit, maybe 50% in five years maybe isn’t that likely, but a significant part (10+%) of the market is, and the writing on the wall is likely to be in place. The economics might make ICE cars unattractive quite fast once the ball gets rolling.

Angelo V.
Member
2 years 3 months ago
So it will be an artificial, government mandated move to EVs? That, I could see happening. Sheeple can be pathetic—-and not only in Europe. There’s plenty of push in the U.S. for this sort of thing too—-a high stakes game of “follow the money trail.” Funny, but I have a feeling China, India and Mexico will continue to burn coal, oil—-do what’s best for their populations, their economies. We heard about the “explosion” of EVs in China. I just poked around a little on that. The explosion is like a wet firecracker at this point.
Jan Ivarsson
Guest
2 years 3 months ago

http://investorshub.advfn.com/boards/read_msg.aspx?message_id=103319070

http://www.autonewschina.com/en/index.asp

Seems to me like there is a fairly decent market in China if they are to scrap 13 MILLION ICE Cars..
If it’s anywhere a quick change will happen, it’s there.

Like it or not, their government does things a little different then ours.

Angelo V.
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Interesting blurb about Chinese made Volvos coming to the U.S. I wonder if that will mean lower unit pricing here? Volvo might just reignite on these shores.

phermansson
Member
2 years 3 months ago

I think its more about increasing or in this case getting a profit margin on the sold cars….

Angelo V.
Member
2 years 3 months ago

If that’s the case, I guess they’re happy with how many they’re selling and just want to make more money on each one. Sales numbers seem a little low for Volvo—-thought they might want to move more of them.

Mailr
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Only partly mandated, the thing with oil is that supply is very unelastic, i.e. rising prices only have a limited effect on supplies as much of the production is running very close to maximum production (and that production limit seems to have a falling trend), i.e, demand will make fossil fuel prices rise, which will improve the relative economics of EV cars. Once we see major economic growth, especially in china, we are likely to see significant fuel price rises.

Angelo V.
Member
2 years 3 months ago
My opinion hasn’t changed in the two years since I wrote here that the Receivers should put Saab in Mahindra’s hands. Made the most sense then. Makes the most sense now. I don’t know what their vision is—-but my vision for them is to make Mahindra-Saab a full line global auto maker, returning Saab to many of it’s former markets with premium Saabs made in Sweden and entry level Saabs produced in areas with a lower labor rate. Give us the small hatchback 9-1 or 9-2. Give us at least two different sport utility vehicles. Give us a premium sedan—-and… Read more »
Patrik H
Member
2 years 3 months ago

+9000. Finally, our knight in shining armor, I believe. Let’s not waste another minute.

SaabKen
Member
2 years 3 months ago

….. and I want a El Caminaab !

(just kidding) 😉

MeanSabean
Member
2 years 3 months ago

A+

swedane
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Yes I agree. A strong Indian part owner would be great. Indian Tata bought Jaguar from Ford and they are taking Jaguar (and Landrover) to new hights 🙂

Hopefully can Mahindra do the same for SAAB 🙂

xelav
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Now that could work out fine for Saab. Something to replace the 93 first would be great. Try to reach a big potential buyers group . And let the world know Saab is still alive !

Piet-Hein S.
Member
2 years 3 months ago

if you’re a Saab-lover, you don’t want to see that SUV (and the other cars) with a Saab badge. you. just. don’t.

personally i think Saab is dead. it’s the 2nd time the owner of Saab is in dire straits/short on cash.

Angelo V.
Member
2 years 3 months ago
It’s beyond the second time, but who’s counting? And Saab-lovers don’t personally think Saab is dead. Down and out, yes. Drugged for a couple years? Maybe. Dead? No. I’m totally fine with the idea of seeing that SUV with a Saab badge, selling alongside the cars that you might consider “real” Saabs. We’re going to need both for this to work. I’m excited about the prospects for a possible deal. I’m not getting my hopes up too high—but have some guarded optimism. The ultimate irony will be if a company based in India helps Saab reconnect with its original Swedish… Read more »
aap
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Saab’s were never affordable, maybe in The States back when the dollar was still the dollar, and they were never intended to be affordable. The European perception versus the American perception.
Are any cars that come out of the factory in Trollhattan Saab’s ?

Angelo V.
Member
2 years 3 months ago

How old are you AAP? Saabs were priced like Volkswagens in the 1960s—-among the lowest priced cars available in the U.S. and people loved them. My parents had a lakefront Summer house and there was a small Saab dealer that served that community (That dealer is still there by the way.). The original reputation Saab had was inexpensive cars that did great in snow and had more space on the inside than the exterior made people think. Quirky, but good.

hughw
Member
2 years 3 months ago

True, Angelo. I remember a college friend back in around 1960 with a Saab 95 two cycle engine. But Saab was a pretty non-existent brand to most in the US until the early 1980’s when the 900Turbo arrived. By the mid eighties and into the early 90’s, it was a hot seller among many “yuppies” looking for something different. It sure wasn’t among the lowest priced cars in the US then, but on the other hand, perhaps 10-15% less than a comparable BMW.

aap
Member
2 years 3 months ago

In 1960 the dollar was traded at c.a. € 2.25 (by my personal calculation since there was no euro in those days) instead of c.a. € 0,75 today. The Saab 96 was about the same size
of a beetle but more expensive.

Angelo V.
Member
2 years 3 months ago
Both the Beetle and Saab sold for around two thousand dollars, U.S. at the same time. Strength or weakness of the dollar obviously impacts pricing here. But the fact remains that the original Saabs, adjusted for inflation, would not sell for anywhere close to the Muller Saabs. And there’s an explanation for that too—-the Muller Saabs were competing in a completely different category. A $55,000 car in 2011 was a much higher end car than a $2500.00 car in 1967. Saab was playing in a different league and they lost. Hugh—-you’re right that Saab became much better known as a… Read more »
saabdog
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Hopefully the past relationship with Mr. Mahindra (and his deep pockets) can secure the Saab name. This sounds like an ideal set up for a Saab come back. This makes me somewhat optimistic that something positive is going to happen and bring Saab back to North America. I wonder how long it will take. Fingers crossed!

SaabKen
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Forget N. America (that would be icing on cake). Just the potential that SAAB will continue as a marque with such big backers is good ’nuff news as-is, instead of withering away (again and again) in slow and painful sufferings.

saabdog
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Sorry, SaabKen, I ain’t forgetting the good ‘ol USA. Bring Saab back to the States!

Angelo V.
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Ken: Have a look at Saab sales figures over the last 30 plus years. Then tell me with a straight face that North America is
“icing.” It’s a very big portion of the cake. The facocta way NEVS tried to roll things out is proof that a new owner needs to take an entirely new approach. No, that doesn’t mean Saabs being sold in the U.S. anytime soon. But it needs to be in the discussion and it needs to be serious if they want to ever be a stable player.

maanders
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Mahindra already sells tractors in North America (I hear ads on the radio frequently). Back before NEVS bought Saab, there was talk that the Mahindra was looking for a way to get an auto dealership foothold in the U.S. and Saab might be that way.

SaabLife
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Well if Saab or Mahindra want to be taken seriously, I certainly hope that they don’t take that “icing on cake” mentality that you have. Tata owes a lot of it’s success to the increasing sales, which were at a record high in 2013, to North America.

I live five minutes away from a Mahindra dealership here in the US, would love to see it stocked with Saabs. I certainly do see more new Jaguars and Land Rovers than I have ever seen before.

SaabKen
Member
2 years 3 months ago

What I meant by “icing on the cake” is that, with whoever the new owners of SAAB may be, they may wish to (like NEVS), chase emerging markets in China (and maybe even India) for future Saab cars. That is the “cake” part. While they may deem the N. American market as one being too crowded with entry-/mid-lux marques for a new SAAB to compete in.

So therefore I see any actual desire by the future SAAB owners to re-enter the N. American market as being “icing on the cake”.

SaabKen
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Is this article a blog opinion/speculation post, or BASED ON FACTS ?

I’m referring to:

“We do not comment who we are talking to, but it is two asian vehicle manufacturers. We negotiate / talk, ownership and development of the Phoenix Platform” – Mr. Mikael Östlund says this to SvD reporter Jonas Fröberg.

Doug R.
Guest
2 years 3 months ago

Long ways to go,,, tough negotiations,,, if the above is accurate Mahindra will want maybe 75 t0 80 percent and at the very least controlling interest..The name will be the toughest thing,, ownership vs license… and Saab AB willingness to deal with this… Specifically after the last mess.

The license of the brand name to me is a huge obstacle.. Not only for Mahindra but Saab AB… Very Very tricky.

Angelo V.
Member
2 years 3 months ago

National Electric Vehicles Sweden (who?) got to use the name. Doug—-it shouldn’t be very, very tricky. If NEVS got to use this name, a sixth grade class in Toledo who wants to sell Saab soapbox cars should be able to have it too. Mahindra had better damn well be able to obtain use of that name. They can keep the Saab operations in Sweden and use that factory as part of their portfolio. This had better not be an obstacle that dooms this.

Doug R.
Guest
2 years 3 months ago

The name issue is extremely delicate and KEY,,, In fact Vital in the deal as I have said numerous times …

The following is from the above article. A key question is the rights to the SAAB name on automobiles and I would guess this is the hardest issue to solv. Saab AB does not want any more negative writings, that could be negative for the arms sale.

Angelo V.
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Again, I submit exhibit “A” NEVS. Delicate? Careful? Worried about potential negative writings? What in the hell did they see a couple years ago that would make them license the name to this bunch? Mahindra is far, far, far better equipped to be a safe steward of the Saab name.

Doug R.
Guest
2 years 3 months ago
I hear ya Angelo,,,, The problem is, look at what has happened… That said Mahindra will want the name not a license. Think of it this way, Mahindra may invest Billions, lets say 5 or ten years down the road, they would never want to have breach issue for any possible reason. Secondly maybe they build the brand and want to sell it well again sell what if it is a license? Nevs was a small player who should have never received the deal… They are not Mahindra. A license to Nevs was like sure ok.
phermansson
Member
2 years 3 months ago

If Mahindra buys NEVS shares and keep the NEVS company in charge of the Saab brand they can use the name since NEVS owns the rights to use the name…

Legally Saab
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Tim, have you read the license agreement? There might be a change of control clause that would bar NEVS from using the trademark if e.g. a competitor to Saab AB (defence) would buy into NEVS. I would be surprised if there was not such a clause in the contract.

phermansson
Member
2 years 3 months ago

I’ve talked to Saab AB and NEVS about it. Of course Saab AB has the ultimate saying but unless NEVS goes bust, then they should be able to use the name on cars only

Legally Saab
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Fair enough!

Doug R.
Guest
2 years 3 months ago
Legally Saab,, great point and who is to say Nevs hasn’t impaired that agreement with the latest catastrophic shut down. What is the cost to the Licensee?(Nevs) or Mahindra. Tim I can’t imagine Mahindra building the Saab brand , investing Billions and not owning said brand.. Also if Nevs needs permission from Saab AB then it doesn’t have the ability to approve any deal without it being accepted.. If you think that Mahindra would build a line of Vehicles spend billions and maybe have any possible breach for use of said brand, I would be shocked. They will need something… Read more »
dcpattie
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Geely has been good for Volvo so maybe that’s a blueprint? However, I’d prefer Mahindra – just look at what TATA has done for Jaguar. If Saab could only capture a small portion of that success.

SaabKen
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Jaguar is purrrrrrring these days. I saw a black-on-black XFR-S (with black wheels) last week and it looked and sounded AMAZING.

And look at Land Rover/Range Rover and how they’ve come back to the world stage.

Lots of $$$ support, long-term commitment and “arms length” ownership of them by TATA has restored their global prestige in such short time (since 2008):

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/transport/10310725/Jaguar-Land-Rover-1.3bn-Tata-gamble-pays-off-as-big-cat-purrs-at-last.html

baas900i
Member
2 years 3 months ago

the key being “gamble pays off” but jaguar also has a wonderful history of building beautiful cars and race cars that win…

Chris Hansel
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Trued:
By the end of the month? It is already June 16, can it happen that fast?

nicke
Member
2 years 3 months ago

The only way i can see SAAB survive is with a mix of Alfa Romeo design (swedish style), safe as a Volvo, quality as the germans and with both cheap diesels, hybrids and modern gasoline engines to a price lower of the germans. Throw the “born from jets” in the garbage, stop compare it to airplanes and start fresh. SAAB has to be started from scratch! The old SAAB is gone, dead..bring me a NEW SAAB!

Angelo V.
Member
2 years 3 months ago
“Born From Jets” was still born. It was a pompous, failed idea. My affordable little hatchback should be introduced quietly—-a profile photo of the car with the headline “Basic Saab.” And as things unfold, it will be explained, what “Basic Saab” means. Basic Saab safety, basic Saab performance, basic Saab value, basic Saab economy/efficiency. The idea will be to offer a car that gives you what you need—-the basic goodness of a Saab at an affordable price. Of course, the line will also include the Saabs you might WANT, with expensive features, enhanced performance, etc. But like those Saabs that… Read more »
Doug R.
Guest
2 years 3 months ago

What does your basic Saab cost?? Basic not exciting Angelo considering all that has happened.

Angelo V.
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Basic Saab should cost a little more than a basic VW or basic Subaru. Exciting or not, those brands are selling and making money. Time to join that party and get off the notion that Saab can compete with BMW. That train left the station in the 1990s. All done.

Doug R.
Guest
2 years 3 months ago

All right basic Saab certainly may have a place.. lol

Doug R.
Guest
2 years 3 months ago

Born from Jets was or could be powerful if in fact the cars simulate certain lines . cues etc. A Powerful slogan but your cars dam well live up to it. Some great creative commercials certainly can be produced. Just my opinion.

saabdog
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Bring back “The Most Intelligent Car Ever Built”. Best tagline Saab has ever had. I place it on par with BMW’s iconic “The Ultimate Driving Machine”. Saab needs to go back to the basics. Marketing 101.

phermansson
Member
2 years 3 months ago

And where would Saab get hold of the tech to build such a car?

Doug R.
Guest
2 years 3 months ago

Nicke,, Like your thinking for that niche.

SaabKen
Member
2 years 3 months ago

“The only way i can see SAAB survive is with a mix of Alfa Romeo design (swedish style),”

Bring back the 9000 !!! 😀

nicke
Member
2 years 3 months ago
yeah well, SAAB cant survive continue doing what it has done. SAAB can never compete with the 3 germans because they sell not only with good var but also with brand. SAABs brand aint worth so much any more. So, got to be that almost wierd carmaker again with big balls who dares to be different. Design is a key and sry but pheonix just wont do it. Cocky, daring, wierd maby even crazy cars like no one other, safe. And pls, stop talking about SAABs turbo history, born from jets and so on, show people what the brand is… Read more »
Doug R.
Guest
2 years 3 months ago

My opinion way to many basic cars in the US,,, Saab should be Solid with euro feel, Good handling with a fun to drive factor. Hence European flare.. Quality engines and highly efficient.,, Turbo excitement.. High grade interiors. with leather and wit out.. Base models in the mid twenties,,, higher entry luxury from mid thirties to fifty thousand plus.

Saabs first car in my opinion should range between twenty eight and thirty eight grand. Depending on options etc. and should have a high quality feel and appearance.

Angelo V.
Member
2 years 3 months ago

They could bring in a very decent car with a quality feel for around 30K if it’s engineered in Sweden, manufactured in India. No reason that can’t be done.

Doug R.
Guest
2 years 3 months ago

I think so Angelo

Lee
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Where is the Jaguar engineered?

SaabLife
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Fairly certain it’s done in the UK.

Lee
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Right. And Ian Callum runs the show. Who’s in charge of that at Saab now?

phermansson
Member
2 years 3 months ago

And what would be the profit margin for such a car?? The US now has the oldest car fleet in history, average car is more than 11 years old, thats twice the age compared to the EU and with only half the market size… have you forgotten about the new toll-free economic zone being created with the EU & US? By then it would be cheaper to build them in the EU…

Angelo V.
Member
2 years 3 months ago
Tim: The fact that the U.S. now has the oldest car fleet is an opportunity and the dozens of manufacturers making fat profits here understand that. Seriously—-Lexus, Infiniti, Acura, their parent companies, BMW, Mercedes, Volkswagen, Subaru, Mazda, Jaguar—–do you think any of them would think “no biggie” if they were told they can no longer sell cars in the U.S.? Do you think if they were starting clean, they’d decide not to sell here—-but to sell in China and India instead? As the economy hopefully improves (if it doesn’t happen now, hopefully things will get better after 2016), this “old… Read more »
phermansson
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Yea yea, dream on… simple fact, fewer people can afford a brand new car and those who do are buying cheaper cars with less profit margin, you should spend a bit more time reading bloomberg buddy 😉

2016 is just another date made up arbitrarily based upon hopes…

Angelo V.
Member
2 years 3 months ago

You might be right, but actually, 2016 is not an arbitrary date. Really, I meant to write 2017. It would be similar to 1981 if a few things go the right way. Wouldn’t be an immediate change to good news—-might take a couple years—-but eventually, some serious prosperity. And I think Saab’s fortunes in the U.S. were good in the mid-80s. Maybe this could parallel that.

Joe
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Without getting too off topic, 1981 started the gravy train rolling to where it is today, (or arguably, August 15th, 1971.) I’d hope to see a rehash of 1902. That won’t happen though, since almost no one is willing to vote outside of the “safe” two-party system.

Quixcube
Member
2 years 3 months ago
I agree with Tim on this. The US economy is not going to experience a sudden reversal of fortune unless we get a reversal of policy. The wealth is exactly where our entrenched decision makers decided to put it. Meanwhile, the outrage of the month keeps folks too fragmented to effectively reclaim any sort of voice in the decisions being made. The money is at the top no and people up there don’t drive Saabs. Don’t forget about student loan defaults either. That catastrophe should be tanking the country nicely right around 2017 (and I am sure a handful of… Read more »
Angelo V.
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Well, I guess that makes me an eternal optimist for my country and for Saab. I think both can have bright days ahead. I’m not ready to throw in the towel.

davidgmills
Member
2 years 2 months ago

As soon as we get a political party called the Guillotine Party, and get serious about its implication and implementation, we will be off and running again. But not until. You libertarians are a funny bunch.

jond
Member
2 years 3 months ago
If I recall correctly, the Tata Jaguars and Land Rovers are selling at much higher relative price points than beforehand, when they were both failing. Both brands had a reputation for premium quality, but dated design and insufficient sales volume. Modern and upgraded design have created products that those who can are prepared to pay for, and in sufficient volume that the company is significantly in profit. That is the modern blueprint for what to do with a premium brand – go upmarket. VW has Bentley, Audi and Porsche in its stable as well as Skodas and VW cars, which… Read more »
Avelik
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Wasn’t it said that the technology development partner is a major private automotive OEM? Dongfeng is not private.

roger
Member
2 years 3 months ago

I have not heard it was a private owned company. Where did you read or hear that?
And yes Dongfeng is for sure owned by the Chinese government.

Avelik
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Tim wrote it in the article “Situation analysis regarding NEVS financial difficulties”:

“According to sources two major companies are investing a lot of money and time performing due diligence of NEVS in order to present a proposal to their boards regarding investment into NEVS. These two companies, one rumored to be Mahindra and the other a major private asian OEM manufacturer will perhaps lead to the long term solution NEVS needs for the Saab brand.”

roger
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Ok, missed that. Good point!

saabserb
Member
2 years 3 months ago
Exciting news indeed! My only question is why is Dongfeng needed in this constellation? It is not like Mahindra doesn’t have enough money to finance the development of the Phoenix. I think Dongfeng is involved here for the political reasons. Do not forget that Chinese people are highly patriotic, and in order to save face in front of the Chinese authorities and public Kai Johan Jiang had decided to involve a Chinese company in this. China and India are not in great relations, and how it would look like if NEVS was sold to Indian Mahindra. That is the part… Read more »
Avelik
Member
2 years 3 months ago
I don’t think Chinese people’s “face” has anything to do with this decision. But there is something connected with the Chinese authorities. I don’t know what their agreement with Dongfeng will exactly be, but if they intend to form a joint venture with them to produce Saabs in China, then I think this will be quite good. The reason, and this is where Chinese authorities connection comes, is that Dongfeng is a very big state owned company so I would suppose that a joint venture with a company like Dongfeng would be much easier to establish in terms of getting… Read more »
saabserb
Member
2 years 3 months ago
I don’t want to start an endless discussion here regarding the meaning of Dongfeng involvement but: 1. Mahindra is in for 50+ percent of shares which means they want to take the steering wheel in their own hands. Why would Mahindra want to share the only asset that is worth something with a Chinese company (OK the factory in Trollhattan, but as we elaborated may times before, there is already a lot car factories in the world at wrong places)? According to NEVS, most of the Phoenix is done, so Mahindra shall not invest much into the finalizing the development.… Read more »
MarqeDeSaab
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Great analysis………..

Avelik
Member
2 years 3 months ago
There is no Chinese face to be saved. KJJ doesn’t owe any Chinese authority a Chinese connection in NEVS. Chinese authorities are not a small group of people that command all the Chinese business people doing business outside China and demanding of them to establish “Chinese connections” everywhere they work. KJJ has connections with some Chinese authorities, mainly in Shandong province because that’s where most of his business is and that’s where he is a business adviser for the provincial government. This doesn’t mean he has connections in all the high places. If he had some very big connections in… Read more »
phermansson
Member
2 years 3 months ago

+1

saabserb
Member
2 years 3 months ago
Just this post and I stop posting on this matter: I wish so much that you are right, but what confuses me and what you didn’t manage to change my mind is why Dongfeng would invest a dime in Phoenix platform development. As I said they have a menu with PSA platforms, from small cars to big luxury cars, ICE, hybrid, electric, you name it. It might happen that they did not get them all, but I have no illusions here (and as I could see from his posts neither Tim has), Phoenix is already past tense compared to the… Read more »
Avelik
Member
2 years 3 months ago
I’m not at all sure PSA has better platforms. They don’t have real premium offerings. Yes, they’ve got the DS range but it still is not what one would call a real premium or even close to it (even PSA executives admit it). Besides, DS models are based on normal Citroens. Phoenix on the other hand has been conceived as a platform for premium cars. Yes, the development of it has taken quite a while, but I don’t think it’s outdated yet. It is not entirely finished so if there is something not enough up to date there is time… Read more »
aus715
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Chinese money, Indian money…it doesn’t really matter. Money itself is what is required and it doesn’t care what its origin is. Money is Money.
If you don’t have it, you can’t do anything. If you Have it then you are off and running. And can do things the way you want.
‘SHOW ME THE MONEY!’

baas900i
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Has Dongfeng’s Swedish engineering company done any work for NEVS? If Mahindra take control KJJ may keep majority ownership of the Chinese operations to satisfy legislation?

phermansson
Member
2 years 3 months ago
I’m sorry to be a party killer here guys but all journalists, economists, dealers and car people that used to work at or with Saab is more or less saying the same thing: unless Saab is able to bring out 3-4 new high-tech high-priced prestige models, sell all of them at a loss for 3-4 years while upgrading them, the brand would not survive. Looking at the competition like bmw, mercedes etc who can afford to be inovative in a way where they wont risk the future of the brand with one model that turns up wrong, Saab needs to… Read more »
dcpattie
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Unless – Unless a big manufacturer scoops up the Saab “brand” and slots it within its portfolio.

phermansson
Member
2 years 3 months ago

And who would that be? I certainly dont know of any such manufacturer?

hughw
Member
2 years 3 months ago
Tim, I tend to agree with both you and Angelo. Perhaps producing some lower price cars (not cheap, but at high VW prices) will give Saab some volume whether they are produced in Sweden, China, or India…..and I’m talking about Saabs, not rebadged cars. But, yes, it’s also absolutely necessary to have some prestige models, although perhaps not quite at BMW and Merc prices, but in the 40-55 USD range if sold in the US. You then ask how they’re going to get the technology. Are you saying that NEVS in their two years of ownership did nothing but get… Read more »
phermansson
Member
2 years 3 months ago

There is nothing of the tech developed pre-bankruptcy left. The electric rear axle system belongs to eAAM, separate company now.

Iqon was both out-dated and extremely expensive, region of 3-4000 USD retail price for the customer to add it to the car according to guys I’ve talked to from that era…

Forget absolutely everything that has to do with affordable cars, there is no money to be made unless youre selling a million cars or more, which obviously Saab is never going to do, so its top of the line or no line at all… thats the cold hard truth! 🙁

Angelo V.
Member
2 years 3 months ago
Wrong. You don’t need to sell a million cars to compete in the “more affordable” category. Tim—-clearly, you want Saab to be the technology and luxury leader. But just because that’s the type of Saab you’d like to own or drive—-that doesn’t mean it’s how Saab can succeed or it’s the only way they can make money. In fact, quite the opposite is true—-been there, done that, failed. With a new owner who can produce cars in a lower labor cost region, Saab can have the limited production cars you want, built in Sweden (not sure how many buyers they’ll… Read more »
phermansson
Member
2 years 3 months ago

WRONG Angelo, you dont know what you are talking about! You are living in a fantasy world and people who understand the industry is laughing at the things you’re writing! Ps, I’m not buying a new Saab again…

Angelo V.
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Yep Tim, those industry insiders who are so knowledgeable—-the ones you’ve been trusting for the last couple years? Is that who you’re referring to? How are things working out for them? They were “the smart guys” right? Good plan they had? Stupid me figured out within 30 seconds that it would be an epic fail.

phermansson
Member
2 years 3 months ago

You’ve got no clue whom I’m talking to…. btw, when did you last buy a brand new Saab? I’m curious if you have actually backed up your words with action?

Angelo V.
Member
2 years 3 months ago
Last brand new car I bought was a Saab, August 2004. I have bought a couple used vehicles since then—-most notably a minivan. There were no Saab minivans on the market or I might have considered one. Backing up my words with action means that when I need a car, I will test drive a Saab. Nothing more or less than that. If the idea is that people who like Saab or have liked Saab need to run out and buy one to prove their support—-that’s unlikely to happen. If someone needs a car and they like Saab, I do… Read more »
phermansson
Member
2 years 3 months ago

So for the last ten years the only contribution you’ve done for the brand is talk…

The point is that there were too many Saab fans like you who would not put up the money to actually buy a car, thousands showed up to support the brand but when guys like Victor put up the cash to actually save it, the fans let him down buy sticking to their old cars… talk about irony…

Angelo V.
Member
2 years 3 months ago
Well in fairness, I haven’t had a chance the last 3 years to do anything else to help the brand. So I guess from August 2004 until December 2011 (as vultures were circling Muller) I had about 7 years to show my support. I bought the new Saab in 2004. The car currently has about 37,000 miles on it. Should I have sold it and bought a new Saab within 7 years to “show my support?” Is that what all Saab lovers have to do? Sell their low mileage Saab before they want to, to buy another one? Is that… Read more »
hughw
Member
2 years 3 months ago
Tim, the last thing I would do is lay out tens of thousands to show my support. I lay out tens of thousands because I want the car that makes sense for me in terms of size, driveability, aesthetics, quality, etc. etc. Since 1982, I’ve done that by buying ten new Saabs, the last one a 2011 9-3X SC that I bought “new” in December 2012 with 65 miles on it. That was a SWAN Saab, but did nothing to help the company as they were bankrupt by then. I was planning to buy a 9-5SC in 2011 but that… Read more »
Angelo V.
Member
2 years 3 months ago
Hugh: Sadly, the story of Saab for at least 30 years running has been that “they didn’t have a Saab to buy that fit the needs or pocketbooks of enough people.” That’s just a fact. How can anyone argue against that assertion? Now, They had combis in two different sizes (3 if you count the 9-2 as a little wagon). They had sedans in two different sizes. They had a convertible and they had a sport utility vehicle. At the end of Muller’s run, they had another sport utility vehicle. Sedans, wagons, sport utes and a convertible. Hard to believe… Read more »
Angelo V.
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Oh, and as far as these industry guys laughing at my comments—-if they’re the ones I suggested they are—-you can let them know more than a few of us have had a good laugh at their expense the last couple years.

phermansson
Member
2 years 3 months ago

As I’ve said, you’ve got no clue at all…

Angelo V.
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Well, I had a clue—-maybe not the right one though.

hughw
Member
2 years 3 months ago
How much does labor affect the cost of a car? I’m of the impression that there’s about 30 hours of labor in a car built in an efficient plant. If that’s true, and the labor cost delta is $30, thats about $1,000 per car. In a race to the bottom, that might make a difference when selling a 20-25K car. But above that, if the buyer perceives value in a Swedish built vs. Indian or Chinese car, in competition with US and Asian cars, they’ll pay the difference. And Saab could probably be profitable with Swedish built cars only for… Read more »
phermansson
Member
2 years 3 months ago

The big cost is in purchasing parts, not the labor cost. So volume is key, if you dont have that, then you need a big price tag…

GerritN
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Nope, wrong. The big cost is in engineering and setting up new production lines.

phermansson
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Lets assume the engineering is done!

Quixcube
Member
2 years 3 months ago

That isn’t always how it works. It isn’t that simple. Luxury goods have huge margins of profit and hardly ever sell at a loss. In late 2013 Apple held less than 20% of the smartphone market in numbers but pocketed almost 90% of industry profits for smartphones. That’s the way to do it. Boutique is where the profit is while selling to the masses is basically a social duty.

Angelo V.
Member
2 years 3 months ago

“Looking at the competition like bmw, mercedes etc …” Yep, you’re right Tim. If that’s who Saab believes their competition should be…they will flop again, really fast. Big flop.

phermansson
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Again, you dont know what you’re talking about…

Saab never made a cent on selling “affordable” cars so lets not try that again. Biggest profit makers in Saabs history was 9-4X and NG9-5 Aero… Too bad they sold so few…

Angelo V.
Member
2 years 3 months ago
They sold so few for a reason Tim. Volkswagen has needed the occasional punch in the mouth to keep them in their rightful place. Once in a while, they get this notion that they should build an expensive car because they think they can compete. Maybe it’s an ego thing—don’t really know. Then they do something stupid like the Phaeton, that no one buys. That’s the punch in the mouth. Then they redesign the Passat and Jetta and sell them for thousands less than the older Passats—-and they sell fast and many. Hasn’t Saab had enough punches to the mouth… Read more »
phermansson
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Eeeh? Have you heard about Audi? Last I heard it was fully owned and operated by VW, look inside that car btw, built with VW parts, VW is the volume, Audi is the money… PS, you still dont get it…

Angelo V.
Member
2 years 3 months ago

I understand that—-but does that explain the Phaeton?

phermansson
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Who cares? I certainly dont care enough to explain anything to you anymore…

Angelo V.
Member
2 years 3 months ago

That’s not being very nice.

saabdog
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Come on, Tim — don’t be dissing the peeps that support SU. I know you’re passionate, but lighten up…and at least try to be polite. I think you’re a bit out of line on this one. Just sayin’…

MarqeDeSaab
Member
2 years 3 months ago

I agree with Tim…no apologies.

Thylmuc
Member
2 years 3 months ago
What makes you believe that the Phaeton is a failure? It is hard to calculate in terms of profit vor VW, but the Phaeton was meant as a image enhancer to VW, and I am pretty sure that this has worked out. Imho, Europeans want to to see that a manufacturer from which they buy a car is competent. Something GM has not understood, so they killed the Opel Senator/Omega, and look at the state that Opel is in right now. Further, the same platform has been used with great success for the Bentley Continental line, and overall, I am… Read more »
No 9
Member
2 years 3 months ago

The last I heard, the Pheaton is coming back. Don’t ask me why? All it can do is cannibalize Audi sales.

Mailr
Member
2 years 3 months ago
I actually think Angelo has a very valid point. Saab should not try to make another Audi, BMW or Mercedes. Saab should go their own way and do cars that are great in other respects. The one thing that has been a hallmark of Saab is that they have been bold enough to go their own route, and that is likely to attract enough customers. I thing Kjell AC Bergström put it right, it should be a car that make people turn their heads and ask “that was that?” A Saab should always have non-mainstream elements to make people curious,… Read more »
phermansson
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Of course the design should reflect that think different style, I agree with that, but in order to make money Saab has to aim high since it does not have the production volume to support the costs of more affordable models, the need to compete in the 40k Euro class or it wont work…

Angelo V.
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Wouldn’t the new Saab have access to other factories already producing vehicles that sell for far less? Could they use that production capacity to sell a Saab that people could afford and would actually buy?

phermansson
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Sure, thats one way, if Saab can share the parts with those vehicles… but would it be a Saab in that case or just a rebranded car?

Angelo V.
Member
2 years 3 months ago
It would be a car sold as a Saab. I thought the 9-2 was terrific. I’d rather see Saabs that are rebranded from other cars—-than no Saabs. There’s still the opportunity for styling variations, interior upgrades, suspension tweaks, etc. Changes that the Saab engineers can make add up. If you gave Saab engineers an $18,000. Chevy Cobalt and told them they could work with that car—-improve it—-but it would need to sell for under $25,000., I have no doubt that a car could be produced that I would spend $24,999 to own. That’s a big leap—-18K to 25K—-a lot of… Read more »
Doug R.
Guest
2 years 3 months ago

Angelo part sharing is what destroyed Saabs image with GM..for many.

Not sure that would work sadly out of the gate… Saabs rep is hammered and the last thing is for critics to say its a re badge or bin Vehicle. Maybe later but Saab needs the first car to be Real Saab.

phermansson
Member
2 years 3 months ago

I agree 100%, I drove both the 9-7X and 9-2X, great cars but they certainly werent Saabs…

Angelo V.
Member
2 years 3 months ago

What’s ideal and what’s feasible, at this point, might be very, very different. It’ll be interesting to see what actually does happen, if anything. Which way will this go?

Baver
Member
2 years 3 months ago

They certainly ran out of time. Both could have been successful with time and a couple of tweaks. I was one who purchased a NG9-5 Aero pre-bankruptcy. I certainly went into it knowing it was risky, although I had no idea that GM could block nearly all moves to raise cash. If I had that info, I probably would not have purchased the vehicle. Having said all that, the car has been a real joy so far-despite the anxiety that went along with losing my warranty and questions about parts availability.

Baver
Member
2 years 3 months ago
Another issue in North America, was the physical state of many of these dealers. Some seemed like mom and pop operations and could easily be confused with used car dealers. Locally, the dealer was on a street known for used car sales and prostitutes. Not the location people looking for a $50K USD vehicle usually go. Other upmarket vehicles have dealers that are very sleek and flashy, and that brings in the people who can buy or lease more expensive vehicles. Saab did not have many of these in North America – not sure how they were in Europe and… Read more »
Angelo V.
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Baver: Ain’t that the truth. Many of the stand-alone dealerships were sketchy. I guess the ones in Cadillac showrooms had nice buildings and real estate—-and had salespeople vying for the Cadillac commissions. I’ve always felt that if GM folded Saturn into Saab it would have given Saab a full line of cars and some major upgrades in the dealership locations.

Doug R.
Guest
2 years 3 months ago
dcpattie agreed and also you TIM,,, That is why the name has value but how much ??? Obviously something… If Saab AB or Mahindra try to squeeze to hard they will end up with Lemon juice… , Lets hope Mahindra has some Tech in the suitcase that is updated… They more than likely very well may. Just a hunch… If not, i can’t imagine why this deal would be made. No matter Saabs last chance depends on a Major car maker wanting the name,, and like what they see with the so called great Phoenix. That is what is happening… Read more »
phermansson
Member
2 years 3 months ago

agree!

I simply dont see any other way for this to work unless Saab comes out with a 6-series compeditor that they can sell 2-300’000 cars of, over a five year period and make a big profit with…

900 classic cab
Guest
2 years 3 months ago

Selling 2-300000 6-series competitors seems to ambicious for brand in coma for so long.
Improve quality, safety, engines and don’t feel ashame to ask the right money for that.
It is important to have a 9-1/9-2 Luxury ASAP (yes expensive, build reputation/branding from it like Fiat 500); Try to sell over 70000 while selling new 9-3 sedans and Combi and 9-5 (or whatever)..

saabdog
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Does Mini operate on these volumes? Are they profitable with their product mix? I think Mini may be the closet comparison to Saab when it comes to volume & number of product offerings. Does anyone know if they are profitable? I think they are…if so, why can’t Saab make money with the comparable volumes and only a couple of models. I’m not doubting you Tim, it just seems to me that the volumes you’re talking about may be inaccurate when it comes profitability. Can anyone answer these questions?

Thylmuc
Member
2 years 3 months ago

I’ve heard that BMW actually had troubles running Mini profitable, despite the relatively high prices and the product range expansion. Whether this has changed in the mean time, I can’t say.

phermansson
Member
2 years 3 months ago

You are right, just this morning came news that BMW will make big cuts in the mini and 1-series which they are not able to make profits from!

Doug R.
Guest
2 years 3 months ago

I think Mahindra will give it a go,,, what that plan is who knows… The price needs to be right vs risk… Saab AB is really more important in this then Nevs… Nevs is in trouble Saab AB needs to agree its the willingness to allow the brand name to be used and bought at some point.. In my humble opinion.

roger
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Maybe Saab AB thinks it is great that an Indian company invest in Saab Cars. Saab have been trying to sell fighters to India for several years. This can be a door opener also for the fighter business.

pekko a
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Is it now 4 weeks gone after NEVS informed about 4 weeks productions stop? Iguess that production does not start again tomorrow…

Mailr
Member
Jan Ivarsson
Guest
2 years 3 months ago
Anyone surprised ? I’m unfortunately not. A four week production stop, place right before the holidays? Negotiations most definitely begun much earlier and they (Nevs) thought they would be done and have a deal prior to the four weeks was over. Their policy have been “Under promise and over deliver” and I think they would apply that principle to all public time frames given as well. Especially one as important as a production stop ! But if things have gone so long as to a production stop even when negotiations are on their way, it’s hard to stop the ball… Read more »
Doug R.
Guest
2 years 3 months ago

Beakon Nevs in itself more than likely is finished, done. Without a major the end will come.

hughw
Member
2 years 3 months ago

from what I’ve seen, the little they’ve promised was over promised and the little they’ve delivered was under delivered.

Angelo V.
Member
2 years 3 months ago
Two falsehoods we collectively bought into or assumed: 1) They had money 2) They knew what they were doing—were smart car guys. Both of those turned out to be very wrong. Their financial situation was shaky and based on the little they accomplished that we heard about or got to see—-they didn’t really know much. They were learning to crawl as far as the car business goes. I feel badly for the Saab faithful who would come here and cheer—whooping it up for NEVS, as though serious progress was being made and fresh Saabs were about to hit the street.… Read more »
No 9
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Reminds me of another «temporary» production stop. All this is sounding more and more like a rerun…

saaburban
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Wrong!
Many of you forget that Saab is the tool & platform to develop multiple models for multiple brands for multiple nr of years. Its like building up à new GM where Saab takes centre stage. A bank where different companies invest in and take out different benefits and profits, information or know-how. Some say à 5 year plan is make or break, but what if the plan is 15 years? What if Saab is set to get more siblings, why this thinking that Saab will b all alone in the hands of new owners.

phermansson
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Good point, and what would all of that cost?… more important, who is going to pay? Its roughly 700 million Euro per car in startup and development costs… that money needs a return date when its been paid back. How far into the future is that date?

hughw
Member
2 years 3 months ago
Tim, are you implying that any new car has to start from scratch? are you saying that not only is there no 9-3 almost ready to go, but that the facelifted 9-3s in various formats (sedan, vert, and SC) are not done, that the phoenix platform and the cars that would use it is still back at square one, as I remember you saying, from 80% back to 60%. Have these guys been more talk and hot air than Victor when we’ve been told they preferred to work behind the scenes. At least Victor brought out a new 9-5, the… Read more »
phermansson
Member
2 years 3 months ago

There is nothing ready to go, Saab needs four brand new cars, all developed on the phoenix platform and that means starting from scratch. Victor could use GM tech in the platform NEVS could not which is why they’ve gone backwards in terms of percentage. NEVS has done a lot of work on the platform but its still a long way from being able to support a new product. During the days of VM, there were roughly 2000 engineers at Saab, sometimes as much as 4000 working for Saab, NEVS had about 800 at best…

Angelo V.
Member
2 years 3 months ago

It’s actually surprising to hear that NEVS might have had as many as 800 engineers—-that’s almost beyond shocking. If that was reported, I missed it.

GerritN
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Well, if there were 800 engineers then they certainly didn’t do much.

phermansson
Member
2 years 3 months ago

By stating that you show how very little you know about what it takes to create and develop changes into a car… they had to redesign big parts of the floor and electric system to accomodate the new seats for example, loads done in suspension and engine. Plus creating a new electric car which is almost done, all of that in 1,5 years…

Angelo V.
Member
2 years 3 months ago

The new electric car is almost done? When you say “The” does that mean NEVS is limiting production to one of them?

phermansson
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Last I heard they had a couple of street registered electric cars being tested, the work to set up the production line was complete and the car was entering its final stages of development.

Jan Ivarsson
Guest
2 years 3 months ago

They have at least 4:

HMU225 Electric test vehicle, currently not registered (avställd), Acquired 2014-06-09
CSB476 Electric test vehicle, currently not registered (avställd), Acquired 2014-06-09
MN0335 Electric test vehicle, currently not registered (avställd), Acquired 2014-06-09
EJO420 Electric test vehicle, currently not registered (avställd), Acquired 2014-06-09

All of them are sedans unfortunately. When I did some random lookups on vehicles registered in their (Nevs) name with the DMV I couldn’t find any SC.

Doug R.
Guest
2 years 3 months ago

Whats really shocking Nevs lied about the facelift… They have been busted for a long time,

Jan Ivarsson
Guest
2 years 3 months ago

Lying in what sense ?

Angelo V.
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Lying by omitting the truth?

Jan Ivarsson
Guest
2 years 3 months ago

What did they say that wasn’t true ?

Angelo V.
Member
2 years 3 months ago
I didn’t say they said anything that wasn’t true. I was guessing that they simply withheld the truth—-withheld information. It’s like this Beakon: You have a daughter who just started college. It’s toward the end of the second semester—-and every morning, she gets up, grabs her books, kisses you goodbye, gets in her car and leaves. You come to find out that she flunked out during the first semester. Did she lie to you? No, she didn’t. She never told you she flunked out though. And by getting up in the morning and making it look like she was going… Read more »
phermansson
Member
2 years 3 months ago

They actually didnt lie about that, but investments from the chinese stopped in november 2013, so they had to change their plans due to lack of money…

Doug R.
Guest
2 years 3 months ago

They never gave you any impression Tim the facelift was in no way going to be ready by fall 2014. Also is it possible the Chinese didn’t release the founds because they didn’t like what they were seeing??? just a thought.

phermansson
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Thats not the case, the stop of funding has noting to do with what NEVS did, I cant tell you right now, perhaps later

saabni
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Tim I get the feeling your attitude has changed from the days when nevs were the best thing since sliced bread , you seem to have given up on saab in a few of your comments above, honestly this news may be the best thing that could have happened to saab

phermansson
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Lets just say that I’ve come to see things from a business view rather than an enthusiasts view. Those two worlds are very far apart. In the end, this is a business and last time Saab was in trouble I was blinded by my enthusiastic view, this time I’m not.

saabni
Member
2 years 3 months ago

I understand that but you are an enthusiast , why run a of if not ? Also saab is not your ” business” so I can’t see why you are getting upset with wrong people , I don’t see point of anyo d getting upset with it anymore – the people who matter don’t listen!

phermansson
Member
2 years 3 months ago
I have invested a lot of time and money on SU and built up relationships etc in order to keep the Saab world informed of whats going on, its been a huge amount of work sometimes fun work but there are people here who have no clue as to the inner workings of a car company, who are self tauth “experts” and I’m sick and tired of trying to explain things over and over and over… as for Saab I still talk to many in former and current management and I can see where this is heading 🙁 last time… Read more »
Baver
Member
2 years 3 months ago

No need to answer the same things repeatedly, Tim. Just learn to ignore…

Doug R.
Guest
2 years 3 months ago

Its hard Tim ,,, I sound pessimistic at times just look at it from a business view…

Daniel
Member
2 years 3 months ago
What if Saab could start from the bottom up? Build a smaller premium car, the 9-1? After all, isn’t that their heritage? Small, practical, fun cars? People would be more willing to buy a new/risky brand small second car for the side, because it’s less of a risk than a big priced sedan. Look how quickly Mini made a come back. The Fiat 500 is back in the US now. Saab might as well be a new brand coming in again. People will take the risk on a small fun safe car, and fall in love with Saab all over… Read more »
Angelo V.
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Perfect post Daniel. If Mahindra can buy into Saab—-make this purchase happen—and if they implement the idea you just expressed—-they would indeed begin the process of rebuilding Saab to be stronger than Saab has ever been. Yes, it would start with the type of car you described. That could be the seed or to put it another way, the bread and butter to build on.

Daniel
Member
2 years 3 months ago
A small hatchback would I think satisfy many Saab fans, bringing at least some who were lost over the years back. Make it really nice, a powerful turbo right sized engine in there, keep the interior simple and clean with top quality materials and take a hint from the 9-X biohybrid and take Mini head on, taking their customers or at least getting them to notice. It’d be the cheapest car Saab would make going forward, but not be a cheap car. It’d be the best compact sport hatch on the market, and then grow up towards Jaguar territory. Give… Read more »
Angelo V.
Member
2 years 3 months ago

A Swedish GTI. But I would also offer a tamed version for people who want the utility of the hatch with more affordability. It would be like the Golf and Golf GTI.

Mark
Member
2 years 3 months ago

I’d go along with the small hatchback plans but make it a Golf/Jetta like situation where the 9-3 Sports sedan also comes in a smaller 3 door/5 door hatch sharing many parts and panels. The 3 door can even use the basic 2 door convertible’s doors. Saab actually planned something like this with the 9-3SS in 2002, but due to drastic cuts in it’s budget it was never able to develop such plans.

phermansson
Member
2 years 3 months ago

And what would the business case for such a car be? I can tell you right now that in order to get the dealers onboard, you’d need a whole range of products which both Saab and the dealers can earn a big profit from…

Mailr
Member
2 years 3 months ago

I partially disagree. You only need one single smashing product to start with. That said, it’s not the only thing you need to get going.

Angelo V.
Member
2 years 3 months ago
Honda started in the U.S. with the Civic. One car, which was laughed at by the “experts.” It came out when cars like the Cadillac Eldorado were ruling American roads. Honda offered a simple, inexpensive car that wasn’t spectacular at anything, but was competent at just about everything—made it reliable and sold it at a price that attracted buyers. They eventually gave in to their customers who wanted another Honda but needed a bigger Honda. That spawned the Accord. Well, lots has happened since then. I’d say Honda is doing pretty well, having started with a small, affordable car when… Read more »
No 9
Member
2 years 3 months ago
And Hyundai started with the Pony! But there are no comparisons to be made. Both Honda and Hyundai were well established corporations with lot’s of resources to fund there foray into the car industry. It was also a time where small affordable cars were rare, unlike today where they are a dime a dozen. It’s very hard to make money on small affordable units, pushing everybody toward the top end of the market where there is only so much cream to be divided. And then you have BMW and Tesla who are already there covering the EV and hybrid segments… Read more »
Doug R.
Guest
2 years 3 months ago

The critics would destroy Saab if they did this. They need a strong car fast something that is exciting and in general scores well with reviews. priced around 30 to 35,000 thousand.

Angelo V.
Member
2 years 3 months ago

The car scribe doesn’t have a history of consistent love for Saab. They love Porsche, BMW, Honda—-Saab, not so much. The moment Saab engineers start worrying about what Car & Driver magazine thinks is the moment their next bankruptcy foundation is put down. I think people do look at the reliability ratings in Consumer Reports, so I hope whatever they build is a dependable car. Nothing will run a cold shower over a new start-up if the cars get a fast reputation for being shop bound.

Doug R.
Guest
2 years 3 months ago

Angelo if they spend with them(advertising) The reviews will improve..They need however their own car and not pieced off… Sadly not sure now with all this wasted time …Years away .

Angelo V.
Member
2 years 3 months ago
I don’t see any path forward for them to start with a brand new Phoenix based Saab or anything like that. Doug—-if you don’t want a shared platform or rebadged product—-if you insist on “their own car” it will have to be the venerable 9-3 if you expect it within a couple years. There will be no “From the ground up Saab” sooner—-no new model. That’s just the way it is. So they can come back with the 9-3 series, sedan, combi and convertible with not many changes—-made in Sweden and priced around 40K. Or they can reskin a product… Read more »
Doug R.
Guest
2 years 3 months ago

Yup and that is the problem,,2 1/2 years wasted could be the end…

Angelo V.
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Yep—-like they froze time. The world kept turning but Saab has been in an ice age for a couple years I guess.

Legally Saab
Member
2 years 3 months ago
This is the way to go also from my perspective. The new Saabs must be affordable until the brand value has been restored. If Tim and his branch experts are right, thus implying that new Saabs must be of the more prestigious kind, then let those cars be smaller size cars so that they can still be affordable for normal hard working people. I’m not sure about Tim’s discussion partners being right though. Too me a lot of automotive experts seems to be too narrow minded to take the automotive business to the next level. I see a lot of… Read more »
phermansson
Member
2 years 3 months ago

I’d like nothing more than to have the 900 style cars back which were affordable, cool and fast, but we dont live in that age any more. Consider your words, there is a huge difference between an apple product and a car, the difference in development costs, production costs and bring to market costs is in factor of hundreds of millions… you simply cant compare user electronics with that of a car…

Legally Saab
Member
2 years 3 months ago
I don’t fully agree. Sure every market segment has its own particularities, but the laws of economics are always the same. The comparison does not lack merit and the difference between different markets is smaller than your words would suggest. My point is that it’s more an issue of beeing proned to think in terms of needs, than thinking in terms of right or wrong or as the case may be, thinking in terms of possible or impossible. If SaabNevs estimates that prestige/luxury it the primarily need to fulfill in future customers I respectfully disagree – it’s a mirage that… Read more »
Legally Saab
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Although, I regocnise that this requires large investments. I’m in a visionary mood. What I’m saying is, if the money is there, this is how I would like SaabNevs to spend them. Steve Job’s style! 😉 Maybe Karl Johan Jiang is the man?

Doug R.
Guest
2 years 3 months ago

Bottom line you build a product that fits a need or niche is better or cooler, priced competitively it will sell., if consumers have a chance to hear about it and see it and test it .

The product at that point will sell itself. Product, , price, placement, promotion.

Legally Saab
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Although, I regocnise that this requires large investments. I’m in a visionary mood. What I’m saying is, if the money is there, this is how I would like SaabNevs to spend them. Steve Job’s style! 😉

davidgmills
Member
2 years 2 months ago
I think in 15 years the Chinese will have figured out how to do thorium nuclear power, and with thorium, all kinds of substitute fuels for gasoline and diesel will be possible and easily available. So I would not agree that ICE cars are not the way of the future. Now maybe there will be some kind of breakthrough in batteries but that is asking for a lot. Batteries have been around for a hundred years and really haven’t improved a lot. It will take a quantum leap in both storage and content to get a battery operated car that… Read more »
saabyurk
Member
2 years 2 months ago

The Chinese are certainly trying, from what I’ve read. The good ole USA is just leaving it to private investors. But, the fact that there is private money in LFTR research makes me optimistic that it’s the energy of the future. And, as you said, we could still have clean ICE vehicles.

nicke
Member
2 years 3 months ago
I just dont get how some of u think! Do you really think SAAB can ever compete to, lets say ford, Vw, seat, renault, skoda, toyota, subaru or mini? No chanse for a new player there if u dont stand out in some way. No i think SAAB need to aim towards Alfa, Jaguar or Lexus but still need to do there own thing. I even think that SAAB could aim for maserati and porsche and really do those wierd cars with insane tech, design not seen before, expensive interior materials and maby look at tesla how they made its… Read more »
Daniel
Member
2 years 3 months ago
Does Mini really compete with ford, seat, skoda, toyota and subaru? My impression has always been that since being revived by BMW they’re a bit more upscale than the others you mentioned. A small car doesn’t have to mean a cheap car. Why couldn’t Saab build a great, small car, and start there? If it would be easier and quicker to take on that with an existing platform, it could get Saabs name back out there and they could grow upwards from there. Make a small Saab to compete with the Lexus CT. It’s easier for more people to get… Read more »
saabdog
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Mini is a good comparison. Mini needs competition. I can see Saab going after their market, and Subaru as well.

Angelo V.
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Yes. Bring it on. Yes.

phermansson
Member
2 years 3 months ago

How many would they need to sell in a year to make profit if priced at 30k? I can tell you that its way more than Saab has ever produced before… each car must pay for its own development costs plus fund the advances in tech needed for its replacement. Development costs today are about 900 million USD, do the math 🙂

SaabLife
Member
2 years 3 months ago
Tim, let me ask you this from your perspective of Saab. Say that all goes well with the deals being made with Mahindra and Dongfeng. If you had to walk into a boardroom tomorrow and lay out the best plan you can think of to save this company within the next five years, what would you think is the best course of action? In relation to the current Phoenix development, current and potential funds, the factory, the other platforms these two newcomers have, and the lack of a dealership network. What would you think is the best thing to do,… Read more »
phermansson
Member
2 years 3 months ago
Difficult question, but in the view of the dealers who knows best which cars actually sell at a healthy profit considering Saabs low volumes, its high-price & high-tech. I’d say start with two cars launched in 2019, 9-5 SS/SC/X and 9-3 SS/SC/X. All cars with the same turbo gasoline/biopower, diesel and electric drive with range extension engines but in different configurations. 2020 should have the 9-2 and 9-4, 9-2 as a two door coupe/convertible as a performance sports car á la Aero X, the 9-4 as a big three/five door hatch-back, similar to the BMW4 grand Coupe. All competing with… Read more »
Angelo V.
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Similar to Vic’s plan, no?

Daniel
Member
2 years 3 months ago
But would anyone notice? Saab coming late to the table. I realize a smaller car with a lower – though still premium price tag – would not get huge profits going. But it could get the brand going, get the name out there, get noticed, be something cool and a little bit different. It would be something new for Saab, not just another 9-3/9-5 variant going after the A4 and 3 Series. What’s going to make a BMW, Audi or Merc customer decide to go over the Saab dealer? They’re the customers who are probably most aware of Saabs shortcomings… Read more »
phermansson
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Deep pockets is one thing but youll find that rich people dont spend money on such a thing as a car brand to satesfy our hunger for a cool car, they do it to become even richer and they want to earn that money back within 5-10 years at the latest…

Angelo V.
Member
2 years 3 months ago
Saab had great placement in Seinfeld. My take is almost the opposite of Tim’s here. I think the owner before this owner—-and his management—-built expensive Saabs that THEY would like to own, THEY would like to drive. To me, that was like a hobbyist buying the company to make cars for their clique, without regard to the market. I think the stronger business case is for a more pedestrian car that more people can afford to own. Production of that product guarantees one extremely important thing: Your audience of potential buyers is much, much, much larger. True, there’s more competition… Read more »
phermansson
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Yep, which would have worked had he gotten the chance

Doug R.
Guest
2 years 3 months ago
Ya I think People really don’t get that Tim…Its Billions for 3 to 4 Vehicles… Saab Needs something stunning whatever it be, at 30 to 35,000.. It may require some of the production in India. Assembled in Sweden not sure… At the Thirty to 35,000 price point it gives them a shot. Maybe slight loss or break even point but it puts them back into play.. Make no mistake the car needs to be a winner among the car critics, that isn’t so easy… Also a ton of promo and Marketing with a strong message we our here to stay… Read more »
BMW Rider
Member
2 years 3 months ago
Investment partner with a bigger existing car company could have some advantages nobody mentioned which is being a subcontractor, not just for design/engineering but maybe building other brand cars on same assembly line, Saab did it before under GM (both ways – BLS made at Saab factory and the outsourced 9-2, 9-7 and 9-4), other car companies do it all the time. Would generate revenue and utilize factory capacity, keep a workforce. It would have been nice if it were BMW but maybe a Mahindra is looking at that aspect, not just the name but the factory and added capacity… Read more »
SaabLife
Member
2 years 3 months ago

So to ask bluntly, has this whole NEVS thing been a waste time? Lets say that Mahindra had been allowed to buy the Saab assets during the bankruptcy and the stipulation of buying the parts company hadn’t been there. Is everything up to this point just a big waste, since Mahindra could have been building a plan and getting things going? Since it really seems like time is of the essence with anything Saab related.

I know NEVS has done a lot with suppliers and such, but what could Mahindra have possibly done in that time? (hypothetically, of course).

phermansson
Member
2 years 3 months ago

With the right amount of money they could have finished the phoenix platform

SaabLife
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Is it that close to being completed? Say they had the two year time frame, plenty of funds, and could do it all over again.

Would the Phoenix platform be it a finalizing phase by now?

scand
Member
2 years 3 months ago

The mercurial Pheonix platform at this stage has been stop/go so many times, which means probably each time it gets going again, chances are that its a whole new team working on it.

Not exactly a recipe for a cohesive end result.

Angelo V.
Member
2 years 3 months ago

That’s an interesting point. I wonder if anyone who started with it is still part of it?

Mailr
Member
2 years 3 months ago
Well, I think you have missed the 9000 development story. That project was also a stop/go project over a long time. From a engineering standpoint, having the ability to go back and fix underlying non optimal design decisions in version 2 without relaxed time restraints is almost a dream scenario, and designing out GM parts might have given that opportunity. Because the impact of design decisions often isn’t evident until much later, so I think Phoenix version 2 have the chance to be a real cracker due to the long design cycle, and thus the extra opportunities to rethink, reiterate… Read more »
BarryMemphis
Member
2 years 3 months ago
To Angelo: Please, please, open your own blogsite. You have many good and bad points. You have many ‘opinions’. But you seem to enjoy posting thoughts and then reading responses (which bring even further posts) more than the fact that you DO have a point or opinion. Open your own web/blogsite, PAY for it, and see how many people VISIT your site. To Tim: I thought that Angelo was getting ‘under your skin’ until I realised that you were negative not only to him (the ongoing pissing match that the two of you seem to have for each other), but… Read more »
Angelo V.
Member
2 years 3 months ago
Tim and I agree sometimes, disagree other times. I’m not important enough to get under his skin. We do not have a long history of any sort of pissing contest—-this one thread has seen a skirmish but that’s not usually the case. It’s probably an oversimplification, but I think the realization that has overcome some people (possibly including Tim) that NEVS was a man behind a curtain—-not any sort of Wizard. They didn’t invest in substance—-they performed a laser light show and the “things” some thought they saw were 3-D images maybe, but not reality. Finding out they’ve spent two… Read more »
BarryMemphis
Member
2 years 3 months ago

I hope for the best, regardless whom the suitors may be. That was not the point of my post. You seem to thrive on your own ‘intellectual dialogue” and the subsequent responses. I do not enjoy visiting this site to see ‘Angelo’s” ongoing posts. I enjoy reading posts from like-minded Saab enthusiasts that say little and do much.

Doug R.
Guest
2 years 3 months ago

I think the reality has brought stress and tension due to Nevs doings .. Two and half years of wasted time is absolutely devastating to the Saab Brand.

I saw it for months and months, Angelo did and others.. Tim is pissed I guess. Can’t blame him.

Angelo V.
Member
2 years 3 months ago

The time wasted and the missed opportunity because of what was decided, Spring 2012—-is heartbreaking to me. Saab fans around the world deserved better. Much more importantly, Sweden and the people living in that strong town where Saabs were manufactured—-THEY deserved better too.

3cyl
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Barry, are you suggesting that Angelo and Tim be dispatched together on a long trip in a small boat with no outside communications capabilities until they embrace the proper like-mindedness?

Doug R.
Guest
2 years 3 months ago

Hey Barry maybe Tim is talking reality now OK,,, If you don’t like someones post Don’t Read it. Skip over it… If you have something to say it. Who cares if someone posts several times If they are valid points or not which may be subjective as to the validity of ones opinion.

BarryMemphis
Member
2 years 3 months ago

I hope for the best, regardless who the suitors may be. That was not the point of my post. You seem to thrive on your own ‘intellectual dialogue” and the subsequest responses. I do not enjoy visiting this site to see ‘Angelo’s” ongoing posts. I enjoy reading posts from like-minded Saab enthusiasts that say little and do much.

Angelo V.
Member
2 years 3 months ago

I hope for the best too. “Hoping” and “Realistically Expecting” were diametrically opposed in this case.

phermansson
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Agreed! 🙂

OddJob
Member
2 years 3 months ago
This seems good, two companies with resources and ambitions want’s to join Saab. And both of them already has connections with good relations to Saab. Mahindra has their collaboration with Saab AB within Aerospace and Defense since a couple of years (which may be a good thing for the use of the Saab brand name). Dongfeng owns T-engineering in Trollhättan which consist of former Saab people and their cars are alredy being tested at NEVS/Saabs laboratories. The Dong Feng Truck company which is the largest in China, is partly owned by Vlovov so this could be an interesting mix. Both… Read more »
Angelo V.
Member
2 years 3 months ago
I agree. To me, the last week or two hasn’t been a disappointment—-it’s been an opportunity for Saab. Disappointment occurs when you expected something good and didn’t get it. I never expected this to take off. I guess I was wrong about one thing: I suggested that NEVS would never even build a car before having the operation shut down. I guess I should have qualified that by saying “an EV.” I knew the EVs for China idea was a non-starter. They did get around to building a few dozen 9-3s. There’s that I guess.
Brian Hamilton
Member
2 years 3 months ago

What is this Vlovov? is this some Russian company that’s getting inovled?

MarqeDeSaab
Member
2 years 3 months ago

I am in agreement with Tim…no apologies.

metalhead
Member
2 years 3 months ago
Saab should continue with its 9-3 release ASAP, but of course make sure it can at least compete with cars like the Passat or even the A4. BMW and Mercs are too far away for us to catch now, but definitely achievable. And start getting proper engines into the 9-3, we have to sell base on paper specs, we need to get people looking at our specs before convincing them with the real drive. Forget the 9-5 and work on a A1/A-class or even Megane RS competitor. Just a hot hatch that will excite teenagers. 1.6L 200BHP, XWD option. And… Read more »
3cyl
Member
2 years 3 months ago

A small hot hatch is appealing, but as others have pointed out probably not realistic. Volvo has dropped the C30.

phermansson
Member
2 years 3 months ago

I dont know much about it to be honest 🙁

saabdog
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Too bad about the C30. That’s one Volvo that I like.

hughw
Member
2 years 3 months ago
Two different comments: 1. I always find Angelo’s comments interesting, usually spot on, sometimes way off in my opinion, but well reasoned and certainly the give and take with Tim (except when Tim gets exasperated) brings out ideas that may not have surfaced on their own. 2. Now that SvD has broken the story, what is the need for the SU crew to keep a lid on what they know about NEVS? We look to them to bring us news, but as they’ve stated they feel an obligation to protect their sources. But their sources certainly haven’t been loyal to… Read more »
phermansson
Member
2 years 3 months ago

We’re not reporters, we’re fans running a blog,… And we’re not gonna burn our bridges just yet, but if this thing ends up in the trash and there is no chance for a restart, then I dont see a problem with us letting go of what we know, as long as it doesnt hurt anyone. our sources were not the ones who talked to SvD.

baas900i
Member
2 years 3 months ago

unsure if luxury is the way to go but I have a delivery docket for 9000 Carlsson delivered in Sydney in 1991, total cost just north of $75,000.00 …

Angelo V.
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Has NEVS contacted Vladimir Antonov to see if he’s interested in investing to get the line moving again?

bpsorrel
Member
2 years 3 months ago

I doubt it Angelo! He’s being extradited to Lithuania to face a LOT of charges…. If convicted I doubt we’ll see much of him over the coming years!

For what it’s worth, I’m in your corner with the small, affordable, sporty hatch. I just tested a new 2014 Mazda3 Sport hatch, which is an amazing car! Beautiful shape, clever engineering, drives very well with a real sporty edge. Just the type of car SAAB should be aiming at. If SAAB already had a rival to the all-new Mazda3, I’d buy it – period.

phermansson
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Vladimir is out of the game, to my knowledge hos assets are still frozen

bpsorrel
Member
2 years 3 months ago

After the Lithuanian courts and banks finish with him I doubt he will have many assets left… unless he’s found innocent of the charges of course!

Baver
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Tim and/or Jörgen,
Any chance Swedish elections affect what happens to Saab/Nevs?

http://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=2054&artikel=5892524

phermansson
Member
2 years 3 months ago

I’d have to say no, politicians are not allowed to get involved in the workings of private companies. Its against the law in Sweden.

SaabKen
Member
2 years 3 months ago
Sorry if this is a re-post. 289 comments (so far) is a lot to sift through. Barefeet. Uphill. In the snow 😉 http://www.autoblog.com/2014/06/17/mahindra-buying-nevs-saab-stake/ Mahindra eying stake in Saab owner NEVS? By Chris BruceRSS feed Posted Jun 17th 2014 4:01PM It’s ironic that Saab’s current vehicle architecture is called the Phoenix platform, because like the mythological bird, the company keeps returning from the ashes. That’s right, the embattled Swedish automaker isn’t completely dead yet. Again. Actually, it may be facing yet another buyout, and this time, the buyer may be from India. Less than a month ago, the situation looked ominous… Read more »
artizangbr
Member
2 years 3 months ago

This would be the best news EVER for british SAAB loves!!!
Why you ask, well indians drive on the LEFT, that means if Mahindra get involved we will have left hand dive Saabs in the future.
I love my Saab v6 and would also look at an electric, all the big players are now introducing EV’s and Saab need to quicken up the pace if they don’t want to be seen as a follower rather than a leader.

Angelo V.
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Interesting point!

davidgmills
Member
2 years 2 months ago

Indians drive on the left too? You damn Brits just had to make the world difficult for the rest of us with that empire thing. If only you had let go of that empire thing a little sooner the whole world would be driving properly.

sandborg
Guest
2 years 3 months ago
I suspect this will turn out well. I am also having a funding issue. At first I ordered and paid for a New York State license plate that read “KSEGG”. Then I paid for “SPYKER1”. Now I have “NEVSSAAB.” If I have to pay for another plate that says “MIHANDRA” like NEVS I too will soon be out of funds! Regardless, this journey with SAABSUNITED and all of its members has and continues to be for me a tremendous privilege.
Baver
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Let’s hope it’s not some Asian rip-off company with a similar sounding name and it’s the real Mahindra.

Peter Nässén
Member
2 years 3 months ago
Pardon me, Jasper, but in order not to lose money, check the spelling… Well, I was actually going to bring up something else related to this discussion: the electric drive. One wonders what will happen with the whole Chinese project if Mahindra comes in. First, of course, the ownership (is KJJ going to stay in?), but also this allegedly “ground-breaking” system. Is it something that could attract Mahindra et al? What is it worth now that Tesla is letting anyone use their patents? Mahindra already has Electric drive systems (although in much smaller cars), what is this going to mean… Read more »
Angelo V.
Member
2 years 3 months ago
Well there are limits to how many spaces are allowed on a license plate, so sometimes misspellings are the order of the day. Regarding your intriguing question about the electric drive system, for NEVS, it’s probably for worse more than for better that Musk is spreading his technology around. I don’t believe there was any groundbreaking battery or drive technology being held close to the vest at NEVS. I’m not saying there definitely wasn’t—-I’m only saying I don’t believe it. It’s ironic that so many times, we talked about how NEVS wasn’t talking and some of us concluded that it… Read more »
Doug R.
Guest
2 years 3 months ago

My take they don’t have anything that is ground breaking…In fact my instincts tells me, whatever they did or I should say didn’t accomplished compromised the cash infusion from the Chinese.

Again just speculation,,, Everything will come out in the wash in due time. KJJ is on his back,, Will he have anything in the end,,, maybe some stock,, If he can break even with some stock he should count his blessings..

Angelo V.
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Oh, I don’t think his personal wealth is in that poor condition Doug. I’m thinking it was set up for him to win if Saab won and win if Saab lost. Nobody here can reasonably endorse my opinion or dispute it, unless they’ve audited him and his family and have privy to his personal fiancés. What’s being said and reality might be two vastly different things. “Saab” being out of money doesn’t mean he didn’t absorb a few bucks.

Doug R.
Guest
2 years 3 months ago

Angelo I was referring to Nevs / him company indebtedness, not personal…I am sure he isn’t broke however i am pretty certain he has a substantial chuck of personal investment in Nevs. Plus others.. My point is whatever the corporate debt is, they Nevs/KJJ will be fortunate to recover it (break even) from Mahindra or whoever with some stock with Zero say or real interest in the Buyout. Nevs more than likely will be history.

Angelo V.
Member
2 years 3 months ago
Agreed, except I wouldn’t overstate what he personally tied up in NEVS. Sometimes there’s more talk about founders financing their company that real action. Often, they want it portrayed that they are shoveling their own savings into the venture because they believe in it so strongly. That’s what I meant by saying that unless he or his family was audited, we really don’t know. They could talk all they want about personal blood, sweat and tears going into a corporation, but they always seem to land on their feet personally and somehow in the same mansion with the same private… Read more »
Angelo V.
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Oh, and sorry—-now I see what you meant by a misspelling. But maybe Mahindra is already taken!

E. Boon
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Perfect stuff to feed exchanges of options on this forum. But again not the news I was hoping for: SAAB as part of the BMW-group and new models in the showrooms fast.

xelav
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Is there already white smoke about the negotiations with the two candidates ? Or is there a timeframe they have to keep hold on? I mean , now there are no incomes for nevs , but they do have bills to pay. How long can they keep afloat ?

Joe
Guest
2 years 3 months ago

Not necessarily paying the bills…Mr. Sunglasses!

Angelo V.
Member
2 years 3 months ago
No income maybe, but a world full of sucker money if they can identify the right sucker. It truly pains me to root for an ending to Saab, even in its current form. However, it’s my opinion that NEVS finding some investments to live another day—-another year—-merely delays the inevitable collapse. My preference is to see them cash starved now with some hope that someone else will pick up the pieces and start with a clean sheet of paper that is a radically different business plan than NEVS had. I still remember the first I read about this, I believe… Read more »
phermansson
Member
2 years 3 months ago

I’m very interested if they can pay the wages at the end of the month, in 2011 it was argued that the wages could not be paid since not all invoices were paid. Costs has to be paid in the order in which they arrive, none can be skipped nor can a company choose which ones to pay and which ones not, those are the basic rules of enterprise.

Angelo V.
Member
2 years 3 months ago

The law is different in the U.S. Employees have to be paid on pay day or the business can suffer irreparable damages through penalties. Suppliers on the other hand, can be stiffed and they are on their own as far as going after the deadbeat company who stiffed them. Department of Labor will step in to help employees who were stiffed—-but a creditor/vendor has to go after the deadbeat on their own.

hughw
Member
2 years 3 months ago
again in the us, costs do not have to be paid as they arrive, Often, the terms with different suppliers are different and allow for different payment times. Even then, a business tight on money might pay those suppliers who for whatever reason are most important to be paid first. In the event of a bankruptcy, however, the bankruptcy trustees are required to claw back all payments made in a stated period (depending on state law, but perhaps 60 days) before the bankruptcy and then pay everyone equitably out of the bankruptcy. This prevents a business that knows they may… Read more »
hughw
Member
2 years 3 months ago
For all we know, the deal has been struck and they’re just working out what must be a bunch of little details. Sure, if there’s a sticking point, the buyer (and buyer is what we assume) can play hard ball. I’m familiar with New York City commercial leasing negotiations where it may take a week or so to shape the deal; what’s the square foot rental, term, how much the landlord is going to contribute to the build out, etc. Essentially, Memorandum of Understanding. Then there’s weeks of papers going back and forth between lawyers regarding the fine points, sometimes… Read more »
Angelo V.
Member
2 years 3 months ago
Hugh: But at least in the U.S., if the deals are “all but done” and it’s the details you’re talking about that are being worked out—-the deal is announced. They announce Airline mergers and commercial real estate acquisitions months before things are finalized. It’s possible that the deal has been struck and they’re addressing the fine print—-but it’s also possible they’ve only talked so far and come close to a deal but haven’t made one. I guess we’ll know in time—-like everything else with Saab. “Be patient, be calm” has been spoken more about Saab than about any other business… Read more »
Mailr
Member
2 years 3 months ago

There is a major complication here, called Qingbo. Their 22% of Nevs is likely to complicate things, that most likely must be sorted before ownership is changed.

phermansson
Member
2 years 3 months ago

I think those 22% will be rendered invalid since the did not honor the contract which is the basis for them getting those shares in the first place

Mailr
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Eventually, yes. However, they are currently registered as 22% owners in public records, and i think fixing that might be tricky if Qingbo doesn’t cooperate.

phermansson
Member
2 years 3 months ago

In swedish law you can render a number of shares with an owner worthless if you can prove that the owner of those shares has not performed upon agreements or paid for those shares

scand
Member
2 years 3 months ago

If NEVS tried that, you can pretty much bet that Quindao (or for that matter, any shareholder faced with that situation) would respond with some form of counter suit, claiming that NEVS had not performed, or misrepresented something in the shareholders agreement.

Then it would get legally very messy, for years. Time isnt on their side..

shareholder disputes generally, are not easily solvable.

phermansson
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Youre absolutely right, but if the deal comes through with mm and df they would have time to deal with it

Mailr
Member
2 years 3 months ago

At least to me, the wording of the end of the last sentence of the Nevs May 20 SWEDISH status update seems to indicate they want to do it the other way around. I.e. the reason for the production stoppage and reduction of hired consultants: “This is both to lower the costs and that the investment in the new platform and its products is done together with Nevs new partner companies.”

Now, how things turn out in reality may be quite a different thing.

Doug R.
Guest
2 years 3 months ago
Guys, you have to remember Nevs can’t approve this deal…. Saab AB must be involved… Unless Mahindra is only interested in the assets that would be different… If however, our speculation is correct, Mahindras main interest is exploiting and capitalizing on the Saab brand to expand their reach globally then Saab AB must be involved. Here is why Mahindra’s willingness to live by the same manufacturing restrictions Nevs agreed to for name use ( I Doubt Mahindra will agree to same restrictions}.. Whatever that is; Cost to licensee for said name. I believe Mahindra will want to own the mane… Read more »
Angelo V.
Member
2 years 3 months ago
Doug: Why would Saab AB have played two years ago? If anything, that indicates their willingness to allow the name on cars, without being too picky. After all, the group who got use of the name had no portfolio at all—–nothing but hot air and dreams. Yet they got the name. And I also think Mahindra would accept a license agreement if it were drafted in a way that gives them some reasonable protections. But there’s a lot more at stake for Mahindra than simply owning the Saab name forever. Indian businesses who have been branching out globally seem to… Read more »
Doug R.
Guest
2 years 3 months ago

Is this abound Mahindra brand or Saab??? I don’t agree but we can agree to diagree.
one spread out

Mahindra isn’t buying any past technology Angelo,,, Its gone spread around BAIC has quite a bit… But to me the biggest thing here can Mahindra gain market share under The Saab name?

Angelo V.
Member
2 years 3 months ago
There is more than the name involved in this. There’s a factory with relatively modern (and I’ll add expensive) equipment and capacity to build cars. Along with the factory and its location, there is labor that has experience building luxury cars and know-how (expensive, but it’s part of “you get what you pay for). There’s a platform too—-that from what we’ve heard, is flexible versatile. Tim would probably have a more specific way of saying it—-but I’ll say that “a lot” has been invested in that platform and if it’s brought along quickly enough, it’s still plenty viable. When I… Read more »
Brian Hamilton
Member
2 years 3 months ago

I think it would be the SAAB name that’s going to be at the forefront in people’s minds, so it would probably be different. Everyone knows GM, but not many know Cobalt, at least outside the U.S. Likewise, everybody knows the SAAB name, but not everyone has heard of Mahindra.

Doug R.
Guest
2 years 3 months ago
My point Angelo is 1) Its an.assumption the Phoenix is the next best thing. 2), The assets of said plant mean very little to Mahindra unless they want the name.. Its not like” hey lets go buy that plant” Remember extremely high labor cost in Sweden. I believe the Management said openly to the workers you may want to look for new work… Who is there with experience etc for future production remains to be seen. Again to me this more about a few things, Name usage Is the Phoenix worth it, how far along it is etc. Also the… Read more »
Angelo V.
Member
2 years 3 months ago
Well, yes, “how much?” will be the driving issue. When a company is on its back, people willing to buy in are looking for a deal. Crows picking at the carcass of a dead squirrel on the side of the road are getting it for free just for showing up. NEVS has to make a case that they’re worth more than a rotting squirrel. If they truly don’t have a lot of debt, I can see why there’s interest being shown. Saab, even in its current state, is still worth SOMETHING. As long as NEVS doesn’t get carried away with… Read more »
Joe
Guest
2 years 3 months ago

And…if the brand we’ve identified with becomes so diluted and adulterated, what are we cheering for? A mere nameplate?

Angelo V.
Member
2 years 3 months ago
Joe: I’ve been a Pittsburgh Pirates fan for about 44 years. There’s nothing even remotely similar to the Pirates of 2014 vs. the Pirates of 1970. Different owner, different players, different front office, different stadium, different management…different uniforms even. The name is the same. So yes, if the brand changes, we’d be cheering for the nameplate. I submit that the brand changing is necessary for its survival. So if Saab loses a lot of support from its base, that’s fine. They’re trying to survive. If their idea turns over today’s Saab fans into tomorrows—-and the new fans are totally different—-at… Read more »
saabyurk
Member
2 years 3 months ago

From a Pirates fan for 56+ years, I agree. I’m just hoping that the new Saab will have a soul similar to the pre-1990 Saab. That’s the one thing I want to stay the same. Actually I think Saab had the same fighting spirit right up through the Spyker days. It was GM that held it in check.

Angelo V.
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Wow, so you’re on your third stadium Saabyurk? I think they had just started playing at Three Rivers Stadium when I began following them as a little kid.

saabyurk
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Yes, 3rd stadium, but to me the Pirates will always be Forbes Field with Clemente rifling throws in from right field. I spent a year at Carnegie Tech in 1961. Walking around downtown, you could hear the game from someone’s radio on almost every street corner. Ask anyone “What’s the score?” and they would know. Times change.

Angelo V.
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Funny because as an 8 year old fan, I remember Clemente rifling throws in from right field during the ’71 World Series (Oriole killer throws), a decade after you were at Carnegie. You’ve got to love watching players who love to play—-Roberto’s joy of playing the game was contagious.

saabyurk
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Re: “Roberto’s joy of playing the game was contagious”
Especially with Bob Prince screaming “Arriba! Arriba!”

Angelo V.
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Bob Prince, fantastic. Even though I wasa Buccos fan, I grew up in Phillies country and Harry Kalas was also a terrific announcer. Off topic, but what happened to Steve Blass? I mean, I know what he’s doing now—-but why did he lose the ability to throw strikes—-presumably in the prime of his career?

saabyurk
Member
2 years 3 months ago

I guess Steve Blass is still a mystery, remember it well. Just Googled and found they call it the “Steve Blass Disease” when it happens to others, but still a mystery.
Sure wish there was good Saab news to discuss but it’s likely to be mid-July, if ever.

Angelo V.
Member
2 years 3 months ago

I remember reading the baseball book “Five Seasons” (Sequel to “The Summer Game?). I think there was a chapter about Blass. That book was from the ’70s, so it wasn’t long after this happened. At the time, there were no other comparable cases—it was perhaps the first time anything like this had happened. Very weird.

Joe
Guest
2 years 3 months ago
Ok, Angelo, I get the analogy. I fully understand and appreciate the necessary evolutionary journey of the technological and business advancements of an automobile company. Keeping your analogy in mind, if the Phillies bought the Pirates franchise, interchanged players and management, kept the Pirates uniform, but ran the team like the Phillies…how would you feel about your beloved team? As saabyurk mentions it’s important the soul and DNA are somewhat intact and identifiable both for the “base” and as a brand differentiator in the “open market”. If not, then a $2.00 decal, and a cheap ignition switch between the seats… Read more »
Angelo V.
Member
2 years 3 months ago

It wouldn’t really be like the Philles buying the Pirates—-maybe more like a soccer team from Liverpool, England buying the Pirates. I would give them a chance to do a makeover to see if I liked it. NEVS was more like a Girl Scouts troop getting the Pirates—-or Saab.

Joe
Guest
2 years 3 months ago

touché, my dear Angelo..touché indeed!

Joe
Guest
2 years 3 months ago

Angelo; If Mahindra succeeds, it could be good-bye Rachel, and hello Bipasha Basu !?

Angelo V.
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Angelo Pang sounds a little contrived but Angelo Basu has a nice ring to it.

ken
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Wonder if this is having an influence on Mahindra’s interest:
Mahindra Formula E team – http://www.mahindra.com/News/Press-Releases/1385631218

Ken

Doug R.
Guest
2 years 3 months ago

Probably not.. Seems they may be trying to gain some green points by doing this…

Doug R.
Guest
2 years 3 months ago

Oh Angelo one more thing how much is the Brand name worth outright?

How much as as a License?? Is it paid per car or annually etc. Referring to royalty.

Angelo V.
Member
2 years 3 months ago

I don’t have answers to those questions. Tim might have answers or educated guesses.

saabyurk
Member
2 years 3 months ago

A little cause for optimism for June wages from Just-Auto”

“I asked them [NEVS] – can you pay salaries in June?” FKG managing director, Fredrik Sidahl, told just-auto from Sweden.
“The answer was reptile quick – yes no problem.”

Angelo V.
Member
2 years 3 months ago

I hope for the sake of these employees, that wasn’t a reptile quick lie.

saaburban
Member
2 years 3 months ago
Investors – ‘Buying into Saab’ is not about facilities, brand name or platform technology (alone). It is about strategic positioning, technology transfer, membership into a premium technology hub of consultants and suppliers that will and can develop premium products for you. Why is everyone talking about Saab needing this many models etc. when ‘developing Saab’ will always being about the synergy of sister car brands. E.g Skoda would be nothing without Volkswagen and same go for Audi. Just look back 25 years and these brands had some serious problems. So, Mahindra just got Ssangyong (will get a new name shortly)… Read more »
No 9
Member
2 years 3 months ago

I enjoyed your post very much. Your more horizontal view gives me some hope.

Doug R.
Guest
2 years 3 months ago

great post very interesting idea’s, thoughts, and possibilities.

baas900i
Member
2 years 3 months ago

horrified that so many mini’s were sold in 2013 each to their own but the interior build quality is nearly as shocking as the retail price…

saaburban
Member
2 years 3 months ago
At the darkest hour of the nite, the morning is closer than one might expect. Saab might not have new models as in the spyker era, a heavy staff of past years, or even a huge following and customer base, but it has a unique and historical sense of freedom to define its own destiny. Its essentially ‘free’ from Swedish government Ministers, General Motors and Bankruptcy Lawers, to freely choose who ever it wants or needs to be its investor, this is dramatically different than previous turn of events? I choose not to mention NEVS, as I think Saab has… Read more »
saabyurk
Member
2 years 3 months ago

And I enjoyed this post very much. 🙂

Angelo V.
Member
2 years 3 months ago
KIA was in financial trouble too. They got the right investment, a new product portfolio (emphasis on value and a long warranty) and they’ve taken off. Have a look at the commercials they’re airing for World Cup soccer—-they have indeed arrived—-hitting on all cylinders. Can Saab have a turnaround? Not likely to look like KIA’s, but on the other hand, there has always been untapped potential with the brand. A big, active, ambitious company with car building experience can make some really remarkable things happen. The right new owner can take Saab to some wonderful places.
Brian Hamilton
Member
2 years 3 months ago
That’s right, KIA were in very serious trouble, some billions of $, I believe. Someone told me five billion. As you say Angelo, with the right investor and some serious marketing, I can’t see why SAAB can’t make a huge comeback, and become as popular as the KIA brand. Wouldn’t that be lovely? In fact, I remember Skoda in the sixties, and people just laughed at them; saw them as a heap of junk. Now, they’re selling for $60,000+. A solid company and clever marketing can do it for SAAB too. I’ll be the happiest man on the planet if… Read more »
Angelo V.
Member
2 years 3 months ago

Kia did it from the bottom up and I think Saab should also offer a basic, reliable entry level car to get fannies in Saab seats—and build up from there. Back to basics for the foundation and then you start to introduce the head turners—-the special cars. If Saab (perhaps under Mahindra ownership) can prove themselves as a high value, affordable car—-they plant the seeds of change. Then with some dramatic higher priced models, they recapture some of the older following.

3cyl
Member
2 years 3 months ago

I thought things might be changing, but it appears that Insanity still reigns in the world of SAAB. Not necessarily a bad thing as long as an equally insane investor with plenty of money comes along. A more rational investor may have better financial success, however that very rationality may make it difficult for them to market vehicles that will appeal to the traditional SAAB market.

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