I’m away for a couple of days, but this ought to give you something to chew on…..
——
Consider this the oiling of squeaky wheels as far as SU is concerned.
There are a number of people who frequent this site who think that Saab should definitely build a high-powered, performance-oriented halo version of one of its cars. Whilst I count myself as a frequenter of this site, I do not count myself as an extreme halo car advocate at this time.
From my perspective – and noting that I’d love to see a higher spec Saab if it were realistically possible – what Saab need to do at this point in their history is improve, refine and expand their existing product line. They nearly died just 12 months ago and have a lot of basics to cover in order to get to a position where they’re self-supporting, financially healthy and stable for the future. They need to walk before they try to run.
Whilst I personally consider this sort of model to be an extravagance that Saab can’t afford right now, I’m open to being proven wrong.
The SU Hi-Po Challenge.
If you are one of the Hi-Po advocates, then I offer you a front page opportunity to state your case.
We’ve frequently been told by Hi-Po advocates that such a car must have 350hp minimum, so that’s your baseline (but of course, you should always go 50hp more than the expected amount).
I want you to lay out how you’ll achieve that sort of power, where you’ll source the engine from, what other modifications you’ll do to the interior, exterior, suspension, etc, in order to make this car 1) buildable, and 2) marketable.
I want you to state your timeframe for testing this car, to make sure that the company can warrant the vehicle in all markets with confidence.
I want you to tell me the expected sale price, based on current pricing in your market. Along with that, state how many of these vehicles you think Saab could realistically sell, given current challenges and the reduced marketing budget they might have as a result of this project (your decision, see below).
Remember, they had trouble selling 2,000 Turbo X’s in 2008. I’m not sure if they sold many more Viggens than that back in the early parts of the decade, either. Your car is going to have to be more compelling than those (which means $$$$) but for not much, if any, more money.
And speaking of money…… of course, it’s absolutely essential for you to tell me how you’re going to fund the engineering, development and testing of this project. The Saab 9-3 Viggen was based on an existing model but still took several years to develop before coming to market. All that development work has to be paid for somehow.
Saab have a very limited pot of funds, so if we’re to add a Viggen-on-steroids-style performance version, with all of the work such a project entails, then something’s got to go from the current priority list. Given the EIB funds are for efficiency projects only, EIB money is out of the question.
And by the way – this is done as if under Saab’s current circumstances. There’s no “we’ll go and float on the Stockholm exchange” or “Antonov will give us the money” stuff. You have to fit it in to the current program by telling us which current priority is less important than a performance car.
There are no prizes for this challenge. All you get is the satisfaction of being keen enough to rise to the challenge.
Please be aware that your entry may be critiqued with similar vigor as if it were one of Saab’s own plans for a product offering (and if you hang around here frequently enough, you know that that’s pretty tough scrutiny). Please be prepared to accept that level of scrutiny, just as you expect Saab to live with the scrutiny you apply to them.
All entries should be sent to my email address (swade99-at-gmail.com) and I’ll post them here on site, as is. If we get more than half a dozen then I’ll put up a poll and people can vote on them.
Saab is involved in a real business. If you can make a real business case then maybe they’ll see it and act accordingly.
While I might join on the fun, I doubt it.
This is gonna be one tough challenge!
Good luck, peeps!
I still love my TurboX . By a wide margin the most fun of the six Saabs I’ve owned. I truly enjoy the extra HP, but agree that if you are going to build a vehicle and highlight the HP then you do need to be in at least the 350 range. I’ve still got my eye on a tuning package from Vermont Tuning to bring my TurboX up to that range.
I think this is a great idea and it should really make people sit and think.
+1 !
If I recall it correctly, Marchionne made the Alfa 8c possible by subtracting its development budget from Alfa’s marketing/advertising budget: he realized that a halo car such as the 8c would do a brilliant brand advertising job in itself, and didn’t weep for the lost ads…
Not that I think that Saab is in the same position that Alfa was… (though Saab could use Spyker technology in the same way Alfa used Maserati technology to lower the costs). Alfa was in perfect health, with a consolidated range and great products.
As Swade said, now it’s still the moment to relearn to walk.
Interesting; I haven’t thought about it in that way before. But such a car must be so much more than a 350 hp version of the ng 9-5.
Agree with both of you!
You wont be hearing from me Swade as Im with you on this subject.
I’m down 🙂 It’s slightly nuts to think that we could do any better than the actual Saab team (read: we can’t), but at the very least we could offer up something different.
“What Swade is asking is a feasibility study that simply cannot be pulled off by a single person.”
That’s his point. He is frustrated with so many people making grand statements about Saabs doom if they don’t do (fill-in-the-blank) and yet have no idea ,and can’t , what it would take to see it to market.
BINGO! that’s why I love it so much.
I want that halo car to be the new 9-3. 350 hp is not enough. I want 7-800hp. Let koneigsegg prep the car with their own engine. I want the halo car to trash all the other halo cars, like Nissan Skyline, Bmw M5, Mercedes SLR. Not just be one of them.
Are you serious?
Saab does not have the money for that. Hardly anyone has.
On the other hand, you can beat those cars, but not by adding horsepower, but by adding lightness. As Colin Chapman stipulated.
And to be able to do that, I think Saab needs help from Koenigsegg. Is there still a contact between the two companies?
Of course I am serious. Koenigsegg are willing to sell their engines, and they will be able to prep the 9-3. Even if it is produced in small numbers, it will be a halo car. Koenigseggs plan for saab was also to introduce a koenigsegg edition of the 9-5. And when they talk about koenigsegg edition, I promise you, its not about 350 or 400 hp.
Hahahahahahahahaha.
No.
I understand what you’re saying about refinement, but I think it’s walking a shaky line to sell a car with more refinement and charge more for it. Customers might be left scratching their heads thinking, “You’re going to make me pay more for something that should have come standard?”
And as for the speed limiting, I thought that had to do more with the tires than what the engine was capable of?
There are a lot of refinement options for cars, like full leather, built-in bars, wood veneer all over etc. that nobody would consider should be standard. I do see however (and that is presumably what you pointed at) a notable absence of sound dampening packages (that could include engine refinement). But as Saab should think out of the box, why not?
Concerning the tyres, they will be more expensive 😉
(speed index Y (300 km/h) instead of W (270 km/h))
Addendum: speed index Y will actually limit the speed to 285 km/h in the EU. Considering that the Hirsch V6 already has a maximum speed of above 260 km/h (as seen on a HUD photograph on this site a couple of days ago), and that lowering the drag to 0.25 will give another 10-15 km/h, this speed should easily be possible, maybe even below 400 hp.
Or use speed index ZR.
🙂
Jeff, the 250 speed-limit of high spec. European cars in Europe is a voluntary limitation of the industry, showing that 250 is enough in most cases. There is no technical background for that limitation in most cases.
Good to know, thanks for the info. Why do they do the car companies do it, insurance?
Being that a “German” Problem, the Teutonic 3 started with that voluntary limit, I would expect that it is more like a signal to the politicians; We put a voluntary limit to ourself, and you (the politicians) don’t impose a speed limit on the Autobahn.
Many things work like this here.
Autobahn 🙂
Although the supercars (Lambo, Ferrari, …) don’t have this limit…, I think.
Good to know.
Must be a nice problem to have, debating whether or not to push past 155mph? I usually have an issue of going 72mph or 80mph so as not to attract radar. 😉
Sad, that will probably ruin my concept, even though there are upgrade kits avaiable to make V6s biturbo. In the meantime, I failed in finding such tuning kit for the Insignia OPC. Maybe the engine is just not suitable for such high power output and would just explode. Just improving the aerodynamics will probably not be sufficient to impress the masses.
Now if we are actually talking about specs, it really all depends on the options we have. Ideally the best setup in the world would result in something like the Veyron but we need to know out limits, where are parts coming from etc. If we only get to work with what we have then i think that would be a easy place to start otherwise the possibilities are limitless.
This is not my way, but I hear those tuned exaust pipes loooong way. And it doesn’t make me feel warm and fussy…
Any how, I see you all focusing on engines, exaust and roadhandling. All this will ofcoarse give a more fast and firm ride, but what about gearbox? What about drive train from gearbox too the wheels? What about all that stuff that keeps the engines, drive shafts in place. Doesn’t those also need to be stronger? At least if it is going to hold for some time.
It would be more useful for SAAB to (re)join WRC with one or two crews.
Because it is for free, and not having a car that would meet the challenge, nor a engine that could be used for WRC it is only a lesser problem.
Off topic, this press release, allegadly, from Herb Chambers Saab of Boston has two interesting claims. First is that there will be both diesels and the 1.6t engine available in the US but also that the Adaptive Cruise Control will be made available as an option. Anybody know of if this feature finally will be made available?
How far off is the Aero-X from production..?
It has a superior exterior. Probably weighs a bit too much, but not sure how many would mind given the way it looks.
That E100 V6 engine would be an interesting beast to watch in action. In my little world, the development of a green V6 should qualify for some EIB love. 🙂
My personal belief is that nothing can happen until 2012 brings us the new 9-3. The 9-5 is a long way from being a sports car and the existing 9-3 has already been souped up once.
Well Aero X was far from production, but not THAT far – there were several very happy and satisfied test-drivers
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/carreviews/firstdrives/65985/saab_aero_x.html
http://www.teknikensvarld.se/provkorningar/saab/aero_x/index.xml
http://www.automotorsport.se/biltester/2006/0607/060701.pdf
Nobody was allowed to make a video of it in action or?
SAAB was under GM control for years. Now SAAB is free, It is perfect time for SAAB engineers to show everything they can.
If SAAB limited on different kind of agreements or ecology – no problem to sell high power cars under HIRSCH name.
I read somewhere that vtuner 390 HP Turbo X makes 0-100km in 4.4sec under perfect condition. I want my future 9-5 do the same. Some more power, gearbox which switch fast, can handle more than 450Nm and able to make launch control start @ 7000RPM will help
I am sorry but RWD is a bad American habit, it’s not even functional. If SAAB were to even consider building a car of the 911/R8 V8 calibre it would NOT be RWD. It is not part of SAAB’s image nor would it fit well into SAAB’s product range.
It would have to practical in some sense and RWD is therefore completely inappropriate.
/End-rant
I’m afraid you are right… A RWD Saab doesn’t make sense (I think that’s why there wasn’t a Kappa platform Sonett: they didn’t manage to fit AWD and still have room for a fuel deposit, apparently: RWD was not an option).
How many are you actually working on this plan as Swade suggested and will email him a proposal?
crickets chirping…
Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT600 – that is perfect example of what 9-5 should be. Not sport car but damn fast
Not enough time to formulate A proper plan, but I’d like to see a ng 9-3 high performance version :).
I didnt see a time limit?
Head up display standard in every Saab is a much more solid image- and sales builder than a halo that will never be on par with those of the much richer competition.
Failed link try.
It works but looks bad, enjoy 😛
In my opinion Saab shall not compete with ugly and vulgare “monster-cars” from the Germans.
Instead they should refine their cars under their motto; “responsible performance” and concentrate on making cars more and more eco-friendly – yet “fun to drive”.
Among the means are:
– Hybrid-technology with 4-wheel-drive
– weight-reduction
– improving of cw-coefficient
– refinement, tuning, optimizing
– new, unknown, innovative, intelligent, unexpected technology, in the true Saab-spirit
+1
That’s what happens when you write quickly on an ipad folks. Spelling errors ‘r us. In other news the Saab website looks great on an iPad. I was excited to see that wood is the standard material in the 9-5 aero. I think most buyers will end up thinking that’s more premium, fake or not (though I’d rather it be fake obviously).
I agree, there’s no need for monster V10 and V12’s. Just something that’s sufficient to keep Saab in the premium-league. Spyker can build the more ‘crazy’ stuff.
Apparently gm will be building the engines for spyker (LS1). That will be fun to listen to, but definitely does not belong anywhere near a Saab engine bay.
Now that is exactly the type of car I think SAAB deserves.
Lightweight, part-electrified, turbo-charged, good aerodynamics and still usable when shopping at IKEA 🙂
The problem is, this car will be delivered to market by Volvo at least 6 moths before Saab can do it. 🙁
Build a Saab that we can all sell and be profitable. After we have that (profitability) then ok build a dream car, but until then……….
Saab should pull a Lotus if anything. A light twoseater with 150-250 hp (4 cyl) and outstanding roadhandeling. In my dreams they should.
I say forget about a Viggen with a hot engine, The next Viggen should have a slightly larger battery and a much larger electric motor. All this stuff will need to be developed for electrics anyway. So keep the BMW engine stock and instead of 15 hp electric motor, dual 30 HP hub motors or something to that effect. Much lower R&D, Euro bank funds can be used for electric dev. Completely unique.
While I would generally agree on the future of automobiles, an electric car is just not “right around the corner”, irrespective of what so called pundits and some manufacturers promote. Electric motors and their controls are well understood and no problem at all. Batteries however are far into the future. We will need batteries that store tenfold more energy per weight, reload tenfolf faster, but cost one tenth.
The situation is pretty frustrating, and agrofuels also won’t cut it.
I am not saying it should be electric, it should be a hybrid, with dual 30 HP hub motors that will bring it to around 310 HP. Add a 2 or 3KWH battery and you will get superb acceleration, superb fuel economy and Euro bank funds for development. Plus this is technology that can be used throughout the SAAB lineup.
oops, now understood. You are right! Sorry; and I should get some sleep
I think I would prefer really good “bread and butter.” Higher price equals harder sell.
Just a thought.
If they would build this halo car I get the feeling that most people would say the same as with the 9-5 V6, “I would not pay this and that for this car”. Because of the currency they are not doing any profit on the US market. So trying with a Halo car is just out of the scope right now. But of course I’m interrested to see the suggestions Swade will put up here..
Well it happens with most brands. BMW offering M package and Audi the S-line. And don’t think a M3 buyer is dissapointed becuase other people can buy M-package to their 318i. You still have the wonderful sound, larger breaks, more HP than other 9-3 drivers + some extra bits.
why are people thinking in terms of the halo car being all petrol why not a powerful biopower electric hybrid in aeroX form this would demonstrate Saabs responsible performance credentials and enviromental responsibility,I would like to see Saab make such a car.
The reason to go for something environmentally responsible is that this opens up a lot of extra pots of money. Saab already has the EIB loan, I’m sure that, like in the US, there is more EU money for innovative projects.
I would say hirsch 9-5 aero sc and sedan tune the engine 2.8v6 to at least 350 hp or 375 if possible keep xwd in
also make it a stick shift.
I probably would not be aiming it at BMW m3 as it is a different league vehicle
realistic targets are infinity m35/37 with 330 ponies; lexus gs may br is-f
price target should be around 50-52K if possible
I don’t think saab can pull more at this time
Short-term – offer a Hirsch’ed-up 9-5 Aero through the factory. Use Hirsch as Saab’s AMG. Nothing else makes sense financially.
Medium-term – some sort of hi-performance hybrid or electric variant of the 9-3 replacement.
Yes , just forget trying to be halo by cranking up the power. The competition has been there and done that already.
Viggen type cars are only needed when your base model is perfected. Saab must first focus on correcting the 9-5 and 9-3’s shortcomings for 2011.5 or 2012. That means improved interior in 9-5 with wood trim, and many improvements for the 9-3.
It is hard to engineer a hi-performance model. My stand is, they should properly engineer their base product first. Then, by all means, please create awesome halo models with incredible styling and performance.
Here, here! We must have been typing at the same time. I couldn’t agree more with your thoughts.
There was an interview with the director of BMW’s M division a couple of weeks ago. What stuck with me is that he said that to attract young and promising engineers etc. you need to have exciting models. I totally agree with him. Improving your base is always commendable but also kind of boring. Saab needs something new to keep the adrenaline flowing. I can’t wait to see their next concept car.
Dude your al wrong. Saab has to make a car that blow away a m3 or s4. You must be old. Any1 less than 30 wants to blow away the other dude. Saab has to make a Beemster killer or it will die.
This is irony, right?
I love the idea of driving events.
Saab do have the arctic adventure tie-in, but… Curiously enough, you have to spend the night at their resort, which means the price automatically doubles. (there is no way you can fly in, attend the event and fly out again the same day – – they seem to have deliverately timed this so that would be impossible)
…. just look at to what countries Audi take their customers to for training experiences. Follow the thread above. Interesting…….
If the Saab brand makes sense to a segment of the market, why are we worried about who compares us to what?
40,000 cars in the United States in an 11 million unit market represents a market share of 0.0036%. I assume the International Market share at 100,000 units is similar.
Exclusivity is one of the brand values of Saab.
As VM says, to hit our numbers we need to attract Saab and ex Saab enthusiasts. If the company can be profitable at this level of volume, than we really must avoid the comparison game
I’m just afraid that too many of the enthusiasts have moved on (got used) to “bigger and better” things and won’t come back to something that’s not on par on paper with their current vehicle. People never downgrade willingly. That’s why comparisons are so important or we need to come up with a completely new smart Saab customer base real quick.
The cost of gas is not a significant issue for a high end automobiles. Here I can agree with Swade – fuel consumption is from the devil. When you compare the value loss of a high end car with the cost of gasoline the first few years, the cost of gasoline will look insignificant.
Robust fuel consumption may perhaps not be significant to the first owner but it certainly will be to the second one and those after that. Which, of course, will negatively affect the resale value.
Ivo
Sure I would love to see a production 400hp++ version but for the image I think its even more important to stay off the low power versions like Volvo and Audi has. 106hp in a V70 or 136hp in A6 kills more potential customers than the R or RS versions gives. So please Saab let 180hp be a minimum in the future!
Completely off-topic, but I thought you should know that I have today seen my first NG9-5 on the road here in the UK.
Scary that it took so long but great to see it all the same.
Halo cars are great and might be something to consider, but being realistic, Saab needs to concentrate on building and marketing the absolute best cars it can that are more than competitive in the market place to build sales momentum. Come on…let’s stick to basics. I ordered a brochure from saabna in early december and nearly two months later still have heard nothing from Saab. If Saab can’t handle the daily function of selling their stock cars…what the he’ll are they doing working on a halo car?
Could be something! Let Spyker produce the Aero X, and use synergy effects. Se it as the 9-4X Mexican built car. Spyker build and price the car and Saab buy them from Spyker.
Spyker does not sell to many cars and this could be a good deal for both.
But the cost is enormous and it´s just dreams.
(My second post was about Aero X)
Engine source? Trust me, Kjell ac and his team at Saab powertrain can do a twin turbo. They are the best in the business. BMW anyone?
Engine source? Ford has a nifty twin turbo v6, made in Cleveland, that they put in the Taurus SHO. Just below 400hp. Taurus SHO is >$50,000.
I like the Hirsch idea.
Torque sells
Sexy sells,
Finish and quality sell.
Puts Saab back on the map. “Dead cars don’t scream!”
Not as hard or costly as you think and it would make a BIG statement but will only sell in limited numbers.
Cowboy Up!
[Lest we forget: One of the few people who got to peek at The Financials in the original bidding process, no?]
CJ,
If just Powertrain was Powertrain.
Now the bulk of old Powertrain is https://www.avl.com/avl-speab-tech-centre-sodertalje-sweden
Saab offered the employees to move 500 km west to Trollhättan, just a fraction moved….
The knowledge is in Europe’s new Tiger economy Sweden.
For chassis and axels Saab should really take a good look at S2AB http://www.s2ab.se/s2ab/home.html They are already spearheading new technologies for one of europes largets and smallest car manufacturers.