Yesterdays no to the reorganization plan was like a punch in the face. Honestly I don’t really get all points from the reasoning of the court but that’s another topic. But it made me think. Think about other options that Saab may have to get through this. I brought that thought further and even after I discussed it with Tim it still didn’t seem completely unrealistic. So I decided to share it here.
How about starting an unofficial reorganization? This idea is based on the fact that all parties (suppliers, unions, potential investors) were really positive on Saab filing for reconstruction. So if the court won’t agree how about getting everyone at one table to reach a binding agreement requiring certain behaviour and actions from every party.
The suppliers would have to agree to a payment plan that allows Saab to restart production as soon as possible. Lars Holmquist, the head of CLEPA just recently said they would be willing to do so if Saab pays at least a part of its debt. Still, as mentioned in the filing for reorganization, the aim should be that all get paid in full. Furthermore the suppliers would have to stop their claims at the enforcement agency to give Saab some more breathing space. I have no exact knowledge about the Swedish laws but at least here in Germany it would be possible.
Saab would have to present a detailed plan how they think they can get out of this mess and would have to agree on an independent administrator to overview all moves of the company. He has to be a person every party trusts. So the suppliers and the unions can be sure that everything is done in a proper way to make Saab succeed. The administrator may even check the viability of Saabs plans while the whole agreement is negotiated. In the end he is the one who’s judgement everyone has to follow.
Regarding the unions – I’m following Tim’s therory that Saab has the money to pay the wages but can’t do so because they’d have to pay the enforcement agency first. So if the claims from the enforcement agency are out of the picture Saab could pay the wages. It will be the administrator’s job to secure that enough money to pay the employees is set aside every month. The timely payment of the wages is obligatory and if that doesn’t happen the unions may declare bankrupcy at once.
It’s a pretty rough description of the plan but thinking it through several times I found no big issue that would make it totally unrealistic. You may ask why something like that should be possible. Well, just because noone, really noone benefits from bankrupcy in any way. The suppliers may get about zero money and many of them will not be able to survive, the employees get their wages paid but they will loose their jobs. So such a scenario will be worth a try for everyone.
Let’s keep up the hope. Saab is not dead yet. There are still things you can throw a kitchen sink at.
Great Idea in principle.
What about issuing shares to CLEPA members who are owed money in lieu of payment?
It would be in their collective interests.
+1
I sounds like a good and healty plan! 🙂
It sounds like a good and healty plan! 🙂
I am sorry to be negative but this ‘plan’ is totally unrealistic and anyone who thinks that this might be anything more than a pipe-dream needs to take a big reality check.
The only solutions, that I can see is,1) A successful appeal and subsequent reorganisation or 2) that an investor puts in at least 150 million Euros.
It is not as simple as just putting in enough cash to pay the salaries as this money would likely to be impounded by the enforcement agency.
There is still hope….. But just a little.
+1 Let’s hurry up and get something in place so cars can get built!
http://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=83&artikel=4687867
Seriously. Why do not you might as well rename saabunited to the communistunited? What V. Muller is doing now is illegal and he is at risk to being arrested. Yet you defend his fraudulent behavior as small children defends their bucket in the sandbox. Pathetic!
I really hope that the authorities locks up Muller in a really dark cell and that you once and for all understand that illegality does not pay. Then you should perhaps consider why the brand Saab is currently composed entirely of badwill. Take and look at sales figures to see what consumers think.
Sorry, I seem to have missed the constructive part of your post. Would you be so kind and repeat it?
+1
What V. Muller is doing now is illegal. What V. Muller had made the last three months are illegal. Everyone understands this except a handful of fanatics, most of which are on this page.
Well, what some “authorities” have been doing to not allow interesting investments that would prevent the current situation might not be illegal…but they surely are playing dirty to.
+99
.
Re; What V. Muller is doing now is illegal
Please clarify clearly what these illegal things are?. including why they are illegal.
Don’t worry if it takes you a while, we’ll all still be here, waiting for your answer……
Can’t you do better than that?
+900
Does´nt need to. Have you read the link? 😉
With a sun tan machine…Ha!!
Tolstoy Syndrome is a great name for a band!
Exactly my thought as well! 🙂
Actually it is a great name for a band!
More like a vodka name, maybe that’s it….his been on it.
The point is that people have been bashing Saab for various unfounded reasons for many years by people reasoning like you. Saab 9-5 is an Opel, or a Buick and the sooner we realilse that the healthier we will get.
But it is still wrong.
Saab may be no more. Or Saab mat survive. But you have some strange interest in our mental health. As if we were deranged people who should be sanitized, ore removed, along with Saab.
Do you also like this quote:
Thanks for explaining the Tolstoy Syndrome, which seem to be at fitting name for you, as you regard all people, who sees qualities in Saab as fanatics.
Lord, I’ve been fanatictised for over 25 years….
I hope this is free advice, cause it sure aint worth dill!
Who tells you, that the money has already reached Saab? You don’t know anything about the situation. So you should be very careful to tell “the world” that somebody is a criminal. The only crime I can see today is your post. Defamation is a criminal act, never forget that!
+9000
If the money hasn’t reached SAAB, then VM cannot state that “there is money to the employees’ salaries but that the company is forbidden by law to pay them because many subcontractors also requires money from Saab”. Or can he?
Whatever you may think about Sweden, we do not arrest innocent people just because they think “differently”.
But random accusations are OK?
tauentzien’s explanation is the simplest one and one I thought myself when I first listened to the press conference.
VM has stated that there is money to pay the salaries. He didn’t state Saab has the money.
So far, inncocent until proven guilty.
Hi Inger E alias Norah4U alias Tolstoy Syndrome,
I think you’ve finally found yourself a suiting name.
We can’t judge about these accusations; however, this isn’t helpful for SAABs reputation at all. Hope VM can get out of this quickly.
Pedro, I’ve deleted the Swedish version as any one is able to follow a link.
Ant to your question before.
No we do not censor links to “non-Saab-friendly” contents, even to sites like TTaC, although the last thing I want is give that site any kind of traffic.
I replied above, re TS 😉
Thanks for the rearrangement of the article: I copy-pasted the Swedish version by mistake…
This was suposed to nest under Red J September 9, 2011 at 13:43’s comment…
I fully agree. In my opinion it’s a huge difference to manage Spyker or SAAB. I appreciate VMs enthusiasm, but he can’t manage all by himself.
+1
VM has charisma thats for sure, but then so does my tennis coach and he couldnt run a Company like Saab!
Bankrupcy is the best solution to get shot of VM, alternatively if short term funding is secured VM should get a CEO in that will have a clue. and fast
As the headline says, lets discuss Plan D.
What the hell does Hans Ryberg, a random employee of the Swdeish government, know???
Nothing. It’s about the most disrespectful thing I could imagine to have a random ***hole accuse you of being a criminal.
Idiot.
Well, to make a (at times too) serious thread a little lighter, opinions are like ***holes… everybody has one… 😉
I should point out, however, that to my knowledge attacking people (either by calling them criminals that belong in jail or ***aholes) is against the rules on how to comment on this website…
Jake is probably the youngest member of SU, 13 whole years of age, I believe. That’s why he is being cut some slack, I suppose.
Ivo
It’s all right, Jake, we understand. And everybody who has been on SU for a year or more (and is still in possession of a functioning memory) knows about your age. You have told us many times, the most recent being -I think- at the time of the ad competition. But no worries old boy ;-), we take you just as seriously as any other Saab afficionado. Young is not, by definition, synonymous with dumb. Just like old doesn’t always come with wisdom. That much I do know 🙁 .
Ivo
Thanks for that, Ivo. 🙂
Pedro-
Thanks for the reminder… I’ll admit I got a bit carried away, and could have called him something slightly more pleasant… But from what I read, Mr. Ryberg was the one of accusing VM of being a criminal, which means that he wouldn’t be allowed in the comments section on SU… 😀 I wasn’t causing anyone of being a criminal. But I do apologize if I offended anyone. 🙂
In which interview did Ryberg accuse Muller of being a criminal?
Sadim-The one that Tolstoy Syndrome (who is now banned) brought up in comments a couple of posts back.
In what way does that have to do with Plan D?
By the way, which is your favorite Saab model?
http://di.se/Artiklar/2011/9/9/244748/saab9-Muller-berattar-inte-var-pengarna-finns/
“may have been guilty of a crime”.
The article does not translate well. Other news sources picks it up… http://www.rtl.nl/components/financien/rtlz/nieuws/2011/36/saabtopman-muller-riskeert-arrestatie.xml reports that VM is risking arrest…
You know: Guilty until proven inncoent.
I strongly suspect Ryberg’s initial comment to the journalist was fairly low key and general in nature. But that does not sell news.
Let’sstop this media-driven discussion now with an article from TTELa.
Over to the topic:
Plan D is the most Brilliant idea I’ve heard for years. Beat the system. Do the unexpected
why communistunited? are we affected by the Tolstoy syndrome or is it a question of politics? or possibly only communists are affected by the Tolstoy syndrome ……
jokes apart, if what VM is doing is illegal, it would be a tribunal to decide it ….
on the psychological diagnosis, thank you very much, but I do not see anything wrong in hoping the a financial solution is found for the benefit firstly of the employees and their families. And my benefit too as I would like to carry on driving a SAAB …
You must understand that 95% of the people at SVT (Swedish state television) are in fact communists.
🙂
I don’t think a communist would be happy about that statement. Neither am I. Sweden hasn’t even got a communist party represented in the parliament so this is highly unlikely.
+1:)
Maybe it is time for me to change my Nick to Schrödingers Cat(Copenhagen interpretation of course) 😉
Congrats, everyone on handling this troll well I’ll never understand what it is about some people that they feel compelled to enlighten others with negativity. Whatever happens, people are hurting here and anxious for positive news. There’s something wrong with someone who crashes the conversation to spread doom and gloom in the guise of “realism.”
Great plan. Might really work out as best solution for all involved.
And in addition – if successful – it would show the public what the real Saab spirit is:
Move your mind – and think in a different way than the crowd / the usual approach when facing problems.
+9
I would agree with you if we were talking about this a year and a half ago. I actually said it to someone who at the time was working for GM Europe. But BMW does not want SAAB; the decision to move the next-generation (the model after the newly introduced redesign) 1-Series to the FWD MINI platform occupied the space between MINI and BMW where SAAB could (IMHO) happily exist.
what advantage could earn BMW with buying Saab ? No new segment to cover, no special IP to implement, no significant marketshare to gain. Unfortunately.
Skoda is the lower/cheaper segment to VW’s and they watch very carefully not to cannibalise themselves.
The rationale some were thinking of back then (and even before the GM bankruptcy), was to offer a FWD-based range between MINI and BMW (there would be overlap but manageable given the 3 brands very different characteristics). A brand that could be BMW’s “green-luxury” brand given SAAB/Swedish culture towards environmentally-friendly aproaches to business. A way to share development costs with MINI. There was some value to unlock in this approach, but I think 1. GM wantedto shut down SAAB; 2. BMW decided it would cost them less to market those FWD models as BMWs.
Tata could certainly finance this type of move – and there is some complimentarity between Saab and Jaguar to cover full range from faimly to top exec limo. But, Jag themselves are, like BMW, developing own-brnad lower range models for the future, so not sure Saab would fit in longer term…shame becauseI love Jags too. And Discoverys. Q.why are LR so poor reliability yet prestige/perceived quality so high? A. price, so long as it costs a firtune, we don’t care apparently, it’s all about showing off to neighbours here in UK, not very Swedish attitude. 🙂
Speaking of Tata. An old Saab friend are leaving them.
Wasn’t CPF the one wanting to concentrate everything GME (inlcuding 9-5 production) at Rüsselheim?
Saw that – not sure he was a friend of Saab in the end, during his watch the 9-5 project stalled and the engine programme slowed.
My neighbour just traded her recent Mini Cooper for …a Fiat 500
OK, but what if just one supplier refuses to play ball and decides that legal recourse is the only realistic option? You’re back to square one.
Sure it depends on the goodwill of all involved parties. They all have to judge what is best for them.
FOR INFO: because of the unacceptable comments made from Tolstoy Syndrome, this person is now banned from SaabsUnited.
A question: will you also disallow the posting of links from Swedish Radio or from other media, such as the one TS posted above?
It was in the end about his tone and the fact it was not the first time he was behaving like that.
No problem to post links, Just as of the comments policy we ask not to post complete articles in comments. And comments are meant to be about the topic of the article. So we’d appreciate to stay on topic. If there is something you want to discuss that’s not within an article we still have the forum available. Thanks.
I understand.
And now that twit.., sorry, twirix is back in another thread, doing his worst again. How about kicking his backside out of here forever?
Ivo
Nice !
Well written! I agree. 🙂
I too. 🙂
He did make me laugh!
Thanks… Helps me breathe easier…
It’s getting ugly, and that’s just the trolling.
A good suggestion!
That can’t be the case in the US? How can they discount a 9-5 by $10k just like that to make a sale?
The price they purchase the cars from SCNA at must be lower than that…
Thanks Jake. I wanted someone to give a reaction.
Here’s a theory. The independent Saab shipped roughly 12.600 car to US during 2010-2011. If these where underpriced lets say by 3.000 USD that would pretty much explain why Saab got into this liquidity crisis in April just before the orders for the MY11.5 started pouring in.
Well… That may be the case, but also remember that if the prices were any higher, no one would see them as a bargain, and therefore, with the lack of stability in the company, no one would buy them.
Damned if you do, damned if you don’t, I guess.
The dealers are the ones who buy the cars from SCNA, though. The dealers resell. SCNA gets its money at once, so if the dealers are drastically undercutting prices and not making money, it’s partially their fault…
My point exactly. Saabs shouldn’t be ‘a bargain’ but purchased because their the best car for the price (MSRP). That’s how they sell elsewhere. A USD39k Turbo4 doesn’t have to be discounted with such low volumes. It’s just the opposite.
When the company makes enough money it becomes stable = reliable. Which in turn sells more cars if their product is competitive -which Saabs definitely are.
Hope it doesn’t feel like a lecture 😉 It’s just my immense frustration talking…
At http://www.svd.se/naringsliv/saab-nej-ekar-dystert-i-kina_6456392.svd we can read that Pang Da is still the main track and they are not very happy with Vänersborgs tingsrätt.
The union IF Metall also say they will hold off until after the weekend so it looks like Muller will have a few things to do in the next few days.
It may pretty likely be the case that the money only is available if Saab is in a protected position (=reorganization)
Whatever it is, Kronofogden will ask the Banks once again about the money Saab has, and then act accordingly.
I am sure they will ask the banks, but they will also ask SAAB officials if they have failed to declare ALL current assets owned by SAAB Automobile AB. They are supposed to declare all assets, even such that might be in foreign accounts.
If, however, the money in question is in a SWAN account it’s a different story, but then on the other hand it is not available to pay SAAB Automobile AB salaries.
+96 (my first Saab) 🙂
Hm. Not a bad idea…
Though I thought that’s why they wanted to go through the reorganization process, to make sure all parties behaved and waited, just backed by a legal contract with the government involved. I thought Victor (et al) had been communicating with everyone involved… If that’s the case, why go through the reorganization process through the government in the first place, if everyone was in agreement to behave and wait anyway? Was the government supposed to be like the mediator then? I wonder what the options are to find a new one, if that’s all it was.
Whatever happened to that European Bank that was going to give a short term loan that was talked about last week or the week before? In the last 6 months, there have been so many stories that have never come to fruition and now I think Saab is probably done. Sure hope that I am wrong though.
Plan D is absolutely brilliant. It is also a very Saabish way of tackling problems. It will of course be a lot of people to involve and they got to do it voluntarily, but I believe it could be done.
Good plan D I think! I don’t understand what the Courts have to lose by approving the reconstruction plan, but why not put out Plan D for the parties to start signing now. It might be good supporting data to submit with the appeal papers.
I suggest we put the plan out there via Google Docs (www.docs.google.com) and let the parties start to fax or email them in to SU.
I think it would not be fair to ask CELPA to take shares, what would be fair is to securitize the debt into convertible warrants that pay a low interest. That way, the companies that are owed money can remove the debt from their aged receivable and many of them will then also be able to borrow money again. The warrants will be convertable to stock at a pre-agreed price.
It may be too late at this point, but to help Save Saab…
Any buyer of a new Saab could be hosted by a vintage owner for a weekend (or as scheduled) of Saab road fun, stories, meals, and goodness to be had from continuing a great automotive legacy. Members of this site are the enthusiasts once counted on to convey the passion for the Brand during GM’s Saab Wind-Down. Is it too late to show it now?
How many here would be willing to host a new buyer in a Live Legacy Saab Friends Program?
I think what Victor has said is there is money that is READY to come in to the tune of 240M euros… now NO investment company is going to infuse money into a company where there is a baliff waiting at the door. What Victor has said is seems to match what is being said by the baliff…i.e that SAAB cannot pay the employees because it is NOT up to SAAB who gets paid. So this guy has his knickers in a know over nothing.
The Local.se quoting appeal for protection from bankrupcy TODAY – quoting VM as china monies by November – sorry too late – bridge loaning enough for wages and suppliers just not going to happen if this is the case …very sad – I do hope this is not the case ???? Big cash rich rabbit out the hat required !
I wouldn’t trust any of the Swedish news sites, Turbine… They make their profit by spreading negativity.
Did you notice the ovloV cost a bit more 😉
I woudn¨t exchange my 2004 9-3 for at brand new Volvo. Volvos design are trendy and without real character.
Jason, take it from Troels the designer! 😀
Anyone heard of the term ‘flogging a dead horse’? Unfortunately there is only one possible scenario now.
Does anyone know why my postings never appear as I post them? I posted a comment at 18:47 and it appeared above a comment posted at 12:53?
Ill say this, VM is gonna make some money out of this. I feel sorry for everyone at Saab, its employees, its dealers and current owners. I hope everything turns out well for Swade.
I noticed that too… :-/
The problem with Pedro’s posting is that it is a reply to another posting I’ve deleted, and Pedro knows why.
It seems like the system puts those orphan replies always at the end.
Zippy, I’ve watched your enthusiasm for the company turn into pure dirt. It saddens me to think that you may be thinking that Saab is dead. Keep your chin up, and go for a drive in your Saab. It’ll be fine. I can’t drive yet, so I don’t have that solace. Just be happy that YOU do.
Having owned many saabs since the 1980s. I never really worried about warranty support etc…as that was never an issue in the past. My concern today, apart from seeing my beloved brand being battered in the media and all, is what type of warranty support will exist if the the brand goes….(well you know, can`t even bring myself to mention the word !!). I live in Canada and own a 2008 9-5 aero with 35,000km that is technically still under warranty until 2013. Does anyone have any thoughts regarding this issue ?
Maurice.ierfino, Your warranty is guaranteed by GM, as it was issued under them. GM has promised to honor its warranties. I don’t think you have to worry at all. The warranty question (at least in North America) is regarding Saabs manufactured in 2010 and later. There are some fantastic deals on new 2011 Saabs out there right now (no doubt due to the troubles), but the warranty issue hangs over those potential sales. I’d take advantage myself if I felt it were safe.
Thanks for the info SaabMan. It`s like Nov.-Dec. 2009 revisited, I can`t take the stress all over again !!!
I grew up with the brand and have onwed 6 in the last 25 yrs. That`s a lot of history. long live SAAB !!
That`s a good point SaabMan. I have very little mileage on it and would like to keep another couple of yrs before selling it. By then my hope is to be driving the brand new 9-3 !! Maybe purchasing an extended warranty would be the way to go. BTW, I live in Montreal just north of you. Got love those Bruins !!!
Sirs, Seems we have become communists. Tolstoy was right partly. We interpret any information event all as one i.e. with great trust to VM and intolerantly to his opposers. Only windowed estimate of all opinions may bring truth. Although Tolstoy was quite rude.
But course of events shows VM words sometimes mismatch facts and at crucial moments he was giving piece of that to us what we wished to hear. But usually this didn’t have continuation further yet. I don’t know veritable causes of it but that you see through rose-coloured spectacles it’s fact.
My judgements are from what I’ve seen VM do for McGregor Fashion Group, Spyker, and more. He screwed up a couple times. It’s rude to say that we are communists, even if done so “politely.” I really am offended by that. Take a look at the press conferences in the past couple of days: VM was quite frank, hard, and straight-up. He’s a good businessman, and a damn good person.
I just came back after a drive in my SAAB 9-3 SC Vector Fully loaded and I must say I Love my car!! And If Saab dies I will keep it for a long time!!
.
PLAN D:
I have suggested something similar previously, but there are 800 odd suppliers & as I understand it, Saab have spent several months, trying to get the exact same thing from them, without success.
VM is certainly a charismatic person, but sometimes I also, see a slight arrogance in him….Like, he is right & that’s it… Sometimes this works badly, when paired with another strong personality.
One thing is certain, some ‘people’ will e doing alot of learning out of this situation, that’s for sure…