Chinese Whispers

Sometimes you just wish people would speak more clearly. When John Nylén, the lawyer and spokesperson for Youngman in Sweden, talked to ttela about Youngman’s new bid on friday, he said that they had “ongoing contact” with the receivers. But just before that he had told SVT-Västnytt that they did not have contact recently and that the receivers did not react on the then latest bid. So what are we up to believe here? It feels a bit like that statement towards SVT was to put some pressure on the receivers. Not too successful I’d say. The expression toothless tiger springs to mind.

What really bugs me about Youngman is the way they act ever since. They were talking a lot, making promises on what they were going to do. But except some money in the pre-bankrupcy times they did not deliver too much. And exactly this seems to be their biggest burdon in this whole process. Much against the normal way Chinese carry out business, they were pretty loud and everywhere.

They have been trying to compensate this with money. Their bid is pretty high, most likely even the highes we have seen yet. Meanwhile it is even mentioned that they have the ok from the NDRC which will keep all competitors from China out of the way. But are their credit lines really big enough for the bid and for the funding of a proper development of new models? And are credit lines really the right way to finance the complete takeover of Saab? You are free to make your own judgement but credits have to be repaid and put a lot of pressure on Youngman to make as much money out of Saab as they can. Even the Chinese government wants its money back some day. Do we really want another scenario whereby a business plan is mostly based on short- and long term financiers, financiers that could pull the rug out from under people’s feet?

The timing of Youngman’s renewed bids is also something that caught my interest. They always show up when a deal seems complete. I said that before, one could get the feeling they try to annoy all competitors in this process enough to leave so they would be the ones who are left. I doubt that they would be willing to pay the amount they are offering now, most likely they would try to step in much lower as soon as they are the only ones left. If they really meant it that serious they could have called Bo Lundgren and bought Saab Parts to create some facts. NEVS do not want it anyway.

But there may be another reason for this. Taking in account that Youngman is not considered too trustworthy and that NEVS only want to buy some of the seven packages Saab is divided into right now the receivers would need another option to complete their mission truly successful. We all could read that Mahindra went passive as the receivers came up with the seven package idea. But they did not leave the process and you can be sure they at least left their phone number. Ever since Mahindra really wanted to buy Saab but not at any price and not at any conditions. So there may be another option for talks. Just a thought…

129 thoughts on “Chinese Whispers”

  1. youngman is also not my prefered company to buy saab, not at all.
    i would much more like to see mahindra for that and their silence may be good i hope.
    the problem is the actual appearing of nevs and their neboulos concept.
    i see no future in manufacturing only elektro- and hybridcars.
    so there is only youngman, which offer we know. and this is much better than nevs for the future – also nevs will act with credit and the money for the future production wasn´t really published, where this will come from.

    • -NEVS
      – ?????!
      Who was the 4th bidder, and what happened to it… Has there been news abt it leaving the negotiations? Or has it been absorbed up into any of the top 2 bidders. M&M might have taken a share in NEVS without us knowing.
      A collaboration from India-japan-china would have been Saabs dream team, opening up potential mass markets in all major parts of Asia.

  2. I do not like Younmans tactics, if that is what they are. They have always been too little and too late.
    NEVS is at least something that exists now.

    I still have hopes for Mahindra, though. As I see it, they have the best base for a future Saab.

  3. First of all SU does a very good job but you need to understand the different business cultures before you just get angry – you get angry becaurse you do not understand who “Saab” is dealing with here.

    This is the way Chinese do business – it´s in their culture and if you cannot coope with their style don´t do business with China. It is a cultural thing and a normal way of adressing business deals in China. You say that YM are not serios but I say you and others at SU do not know enough about the chinese business culture and that is why you make wrong conclusion.

    • Well, let’s put it this way; it’s them doing business here, in northern Europe. I sometimes see comments about different business cultures, Middle East, Asia etc. and how it can be important to know about these differences if one wants to be successful. I think most, in this very much international forum, even can tell some stories about small differences between them and their neighbours; in fact, one can observe small differences in leadership and how negotiations are conducted between the Scandinavian countries. But as I said initially; it is them doing business here, not the other way around. And as far as I know, Ms Pang has studied at some university in England.

      • Moste feelings against YM is based roumers from what happen when Saab was trying to get a new funding partner that failed in the end so in that reflexion Saab was trying to make a deal with the Chinese not the other away arround my friend and they step in as an 2. solution when the first one failed and they are still here. That just confirms my starting comment. You are not as rational as you think you are:-D

        Saab started the game with YM in China not the other way arround and now you say that they are not serios – come on…

        • Hint, Saab stopped existing on the 19th of December 2011… after that it has been Youngman who has been trying to do business here in Sweden with the Swedish Authorities who are represented by the bankruptcy receivers (administrators), according to Swedish customs and Swedish rules, not the way you describe!

          You are wrong!

    • I have to tell you the truth. The Chinese from Zhejiang Province are not really businessman but more politician. You just trust wrong people. I’m sorry about it!

      • I do not trust anybody before the Deal is done:-D

        Why are Zhejiang Province different from the rest of China?

        Have you ever head of a large takeover where the Chinses just made a deal within 6 months – it just does not happen in that timeframe no matter where you come from in China…

          • Yes but not comparable with Saab given GM veto, Ford were , to their universal credit, supportive of that sale while GM and by neglect, the Swed Gov have tried to kill Saab, so not a worthwhile comparison.

            • yea but what we were comparing with is how fast the chinese gov could operate… in the volvo deal they managed to give approval in just a few months… Youngman waited more than half a year and nothing happened…

              • WELL
                It is easy to answer.

                what has FORD done for Ceely ?
                and what has GM done for SAAB ?

                The difference is someone wants you alive ,and someone wants you die.

  4. Usually the ones with the most to loose go to the press first… Whenever Youngman has been in trouble with the sale, their representatives have been talking to the media…

  5. None of us really know crap. We don’t know if M&M is still in the process. We don;t know if Youngman is a good guy or the boogieman. We don’t know much about NEVS (remember North Street Capitol). So as I’ve said before……sit back and watch the movie.

      • Care to share Jeroen? I cant think of any special damage that info would create at this point?! The “need” to acquire saab to continue theory has been thrown before, anything else? They will move Saab from day 1 ? (which means they wont get the Saab brand name from Saab AB).

        I am with you, i really the best for THN, but why wait, seems that NEVS is the only player left if Youngman really is this cruel.

        • Well, I have shared some of my thoughts on Youngman before. I am not a fan and I seriously doubt the honesty of their public statements. I know am not alone in that opinion: for instance, Steven Wade and me have more or less the same knowledge about their antics and I believe we are in agreement when it comes to Youngman. Their “need” to acquire Saab is not just a theory, but a notion based on certain knowledge about their buesiness structure that I acquired during my period at Saab. I am not going to elaborate on that too much just yet, mostly because I hope that they will eventually lose out. But keep this in mind: Youngman needs production in China.

          They are, in my experience, a cynical bunch who do not have Saab’s interest at the forefront. I got the impression during 2011 that all their actions were first and foremost aimed at trying to secure their own interests, rather than promoting Saab’s interests. They are, in my experience, a group that says all the right things when it is most convenient, with the aim to get public opinion on their side; therefore, I largely agree with Till’s assessment when it comes to timing their public statements. So I don’t believe them when they say they will continue to produce in Trollhättan. Based on the earlier mentioned knowledge about their business structure, I believe strongly that they will focus on China-based production as soon as possible. Because of that, I don’t believe they will get the Saab brand anyway, if Saab AB’s Håkan Busche is to be believed. (Most of all, I would like to know what it is exactly that they would produce in Trollhättan, because I’d be VERY surprised if they are allowed to produce any cars from the old Saab line-up).

          Now, I am the first to admit that I don’t have all the information and I don’t pretend to know everything about their motives. Nor am I motivated by some sort of grudge against Youngman. This is just my personal view, based on the period I spent at Saab and my experiences there. I also want the best for Trollhättan and many of my former colleagues living there, and I don’t think Youngman is it.

          • Thanks for your insight and comments Jeroen, very valuable indeed.
            Yeah,i agree, lets hope we get a “real” Saab masterplan out of this sale.

            • Very appreciated, Jeroen. My respects to you!
              More ppl shareing any kind info instead acting “big shots who know something but are not allowed(!) to reveal anything/talk about it”. What kind of crap is that? Not allowed by whom? What a joke.
              As TimR pointed out Saab stopped existing on 19th of December 2011. No reason to be quite anymore. It only creates frustration when ppl try to create illusion they possess info like they were members of Saab management prior to bakruptcy.
              Please, speak up or skip “im not allowed/i cant talk about that”. Its just embarassing.

          • I am and have been very sceptical about NEVS intentions, do you any info on their plans?

            Sometimes it is better to go with the devil you know, what can you say about NEVS that would give us some confidence they will develop the SAAB brand and produce cars in Trollhättan?

            • I don’t know anything about NEVS first-hand. Basically, ever since December 19, I am most of the time relying on the same info as you guys 🙂 I can of course give a helicopter view assessment of their ideas based on what I’ve read in media, but I am not sure if that would mean anything.

  6. If NEVS as much as mention something involving taxpayers money, there will be riots in Sweden. I dont see how they will be able to survive as company according to their business plan without swegov coming to their aid.
    They (or any other EV manufacturer for that matter) can forget me as customer of e-cars as long following isnt fixed:
    1. Charging time must be equaly long as it takes to fill petrol in a car of same size.
    2. Driving distance must be equaly long to driving distance of petrol car of same size.
    3. Infrastructure must exist, at least through Europe, so ppl can charge their cars equaly to when they need to refill petrol (see number 1).
    As long as those 3 things above are not reality, an EV is useless to me. I dont think im alone to think this way. I cant afford having one “regular” car and one “eSAAB”. I need a car that i can drive to shopping to and drive through Europe with, and everything there inbetween.
    The other thing about NEVS is how much ppl (former SAAB employees) they intend to employ? Anything less than every single one of former SAAB employees that still havent found a new job, is unacceptable.

    • So if I read your correctly, a hybrid would work for you? After all, a hybrid driveline allows you to drive as long as you want on conventional fuels, but also offers you the option to lower your emissions by switching to electric or electric+fuel. And from what I have read about them, it seems like NEVS is not just 100 percent focused on EVs, but is planning to develop hybrids as well.

      And your employment comment is simply not realistic. A new Saab is always going to be leaner than the company that went bankrupt on December 19.

      • Yes, hybrid as you describe it is something i could easily live with, as long as it doesnt include any form of “plug in to charge”.

        Employment part is very important for many in Trollhättan, and given what i read its still about 1300-1500 former employees out there. For each day that goes they care less and less what will be manufactured and more and more how many of them will be re-employed by future owner. Love towards Saab alone cant feed them and their kids and pay their bills.

        • Sure, many of my former colleagues live in Trollhättan and for the town it is very important that as many as possible have the possibility to be re-employed by a new Saab. I am just saying that full re-employment for all currently unemployed former Saab workers will probably not be possible. Especially not in the early phases of the company, as a production restart will take some time.

          Plug-in to charge should not be a problem if you’re parking it in your car bay at night, should it? If you don’t have time to charge it, there is always your gasoline or diesel engine. But if you have the option to charge the car over night while it is parked next to your house, I think that shouldn’t be a problem. For me it wouldn’t be an issue, let me put it that way.

          As for fully electric vehicles, I agree with you that they are ahead of their time and at this moment inconvenient. Even if battery manufacturers would fix the range and cost issues quickly (which they will of course, in the next 10 to 15 years, but it will take time), there needs to be a simultaneous effort in putting an infrastructure in place. And that is the biggest issue since it takes a lot of coordination, investments and planning, probably on a pan-European or even global scale.

          • Dont have possibility to plug in my car to recharge over the nigh. Solution where battery is charged while i drive “traditionaly” similar to charging traditional car batery is something for me.
            If there is no such solution, then even hybrids are nothing for me, for time being.

  7. Unless the buyer is a well financed, cash rich company, all will be be using investors for financing. So from that point it is how strong the parent is and their businesses. Youngman is an established company in China with ties in bus, truck manufacture and some cars at the low to budget range so saab has a value. NEVS is a new comapny set up JUST to purchase Saab. 49% owned by a venture capital company. 51% owned by a what appears to be a chinese national company but registered in British Virgin Islands. This last bit is worrying as no chinese goverment backed business would allow it be registered outside their jurisdiction. So on this point NEVS is more suspect financially than Youngman and more susceptable to have the money pulled from under it.
    I also worry that well known swedish automotive people are there just for window dressing only, and as long as any sort of info about their long term plans is kept secret the more worried I am.
    Unfortunately it may have been the receivers carve up of the saab estate into packages (something I thought they said they would only do if no buyers could be found) has send M&M, who have the financial power, diverse group activities and experience in both automotive and technology sectors heading for the door, this is down to the receivers.

    In the current position I would go Youngman purely on the basis that NEVS do not appear to have a plan other than to grab technology and patents, which would leave THN with unemployment and an empty factory which is far worse.
    Remember VM had viable financing available, it was GM and Swedish government that blocked all his attempts. Youngman and any new buyer would not have that problem or interference.

    • But in China only politician can do business. Please don’t forget about it! And all YM’s technique are bought from Germany. They never have their own. How can you believe that they can save SAAB? Only by money?

      • Because Saab has that technology already and just need the finance to carry out the development plan. Instead of just buying the tech, with Saab they will be buying the creators of the tech which is a huge benefit for both Saab and Youngman.

    • I agree with Artizang…

      but one correcting is needed that Saab was in fact alreday devided into pieces and therefor very hard for the receivers to hande like one. With different owners or at least we could call it different companies owning stakes in Saab it was just not up to the receivers to slam it all togeather. The receivers had to create a sales prospect when the byers need to bid for the pieces of Saab. That is why the SveGov can say that they will not sell Saab Parts at any price. SveGov are in change of the Saab Parts AB price!

  8. Well

    This “funny” thing comes again.

    Let´s check these topics in SU .


    So i really want to know what is the PURPOSE of this type of post ???

    To provoke a argument against China? Against Chinese companies???

    To evoke some racism that show how they don´t like anything of China???

    You guys don´t know YM is the only company shows and reveal all the detail of his payment, business plan and goodwill to SAAB to the public.
    What did the other parties do? Silent ,quiet , and nothing else.

    To TILL72

    I appreciate what you have done for SU,
    But all your texts here come from your THOUGHT, come from your GUESS,come from your UNTRUST of anything of China.
    You don´t any evidence to prove what you said, even one thing!

    So Please don´t make any topic like this , just purely against someone without any reasonable convince.

    Your activities just remind me the Olympic Game 2008 in Beijing, i was in Sweden.
    In the TV program there were huge of sceptic, untrust , unfair views from the commanders,from the media before it started.

    And what happened after the OG 2008? Everybody shuts his mouth up.
    My opinion , the most of Swedes are gentle ,kind ,educated and unaggressive, but some of Swedes are definitely not this kind of person.

    Whatever who buy SAAB finally, i don´t care.


    • As I see it, the scepticism against Youngman has NOTHING to do with them being chinese. But it has ALL to do with their strange behaviour regarding money; Too little and/or too late.

      • So why SU haven´t any sceptcism against the other parties, even a word?
        Becasue they are all silent and without any information released? Is this a reasonable activity that could calm down the anxiety of public?
        If that was true , well i think all the politician will appreciate it and learn from this.
        They might say THANK YOU!

        • I think there’s been lots of skepticism raised against some of the other parties. The comments about NEVS are not exactly glowing. If you go back several months there were loads of complaints regarding Victor Muller and his various attempts to shore up Saab’s funding, especially from the American venture capital firm North Street Capital. The complaints about Swedish government minister Maud Olofsson and her handling of the Saab affair were stinging, as were the comments about Saab’s administrator Guy Lofalk. Of course, no one took more of a beating than General Motors for its role in creating today’s state of affairs. When you think about, the vast majority of the negative comments on SU have been directed at Swedish and American entities. Even so, I would guess that Swedes and Americans together make of the majority of SU’s readership. (That’s just a guess, not a fact that I can substantiate). What’s more, there are plenty of readers here who are hoping for Youngman’s success in the bidding process. Or at least they hope for it if the Indian firm Mahindra & Mahindra isn’t successful, which seems less likely these days. The fact is, though, that none of us can really know what the outcome for Saab with any of these parties would be. With GM’s complete intransigence regarding its licenses, Saab’s employees finding new work (especially those focused on development), the length of this bankruptcy process, and the cost of doing business in Sweden with such a small portion of the global auto market it will be a tough up-hill climb for just about anyone save an already established car-maker like BMW, VW, or the like. That’s not to say that we don’t all really hope for the best whoever ends up with the winning bid–be they Chinese, Japanese, Indian, Swedish, German, whatever.

          • SAABMAN thank you for your reply.

            What i exactly mean is that in SU there are not so many arguments and sceptisms against the other bidders.
            Mahindra none
            BMW none
            Brightwell None

            That is ture that there are lots of arguments against the roles in this game in SU (GM, VM, SweGov etc..)

            But none of them have face to and rised the lever of scepticism and untrust so high as YOUNGMAN.

            That is what i really don´t like its unfairness because it lacks of reasonable convince rather than personal sensation.

            • I don’t want to rise the discussion to a racism lever.
              BUT please check these topics here in SU.

              They just put the nationality in these topics, CHINESE … INDIAN…
              So which information do the authors really want to tranfer to the readers?

              • We have nothing against people from different parts of the world but the facts are pretty clear. Youngman made promises time and time again and did not deliver on them.

                Its a matter of trust… we simply do not trust Youngman to do what they say that they will do.

                A big reason for this are the things happening in China, the consolidation of the auto-industry. The fact that Mr Pang has bought a lot of land cheaply from the government in order to build car factories, the fact that all the money invested into Saab by Youngman are regional-government money and not his own… I don’t think those politicians consider their region to extend all the way to Trollhättan… so simply put they are after Saab so that they can make use of all that land and regional money to build cars in China… not in Sweden!

                • First
                  Tell me which facts that YM damage their promise .

                  I don’t think the way of get the funding from regional government was wrong.
                  Actully that is a popular way of Chinese company finance itself in China.
                  But you get to know ,financing from the Government doesn’t really means that the company would be controlled by the government.They (Government )have their own purpose : boost the local economy,help small company to rise the money, join the great profit after its investment and etc..
                  Tell me what is wrong here


                  YONGMAN is a car/bus manufacture, is there any wrong that she bought the land for its future development? She has its own car brand and market and logically it wants to develop its own car/bus. Actually it shows that YOUNGMAN has a good financial capacity.
                  Tell me what is wrong here


                  There has been a good example of Chinese company runs the Swedish CAR pretty well -VOLVO.
                  If Geely (owner of VOLVO CAR) conducted VOLVO very bad, we might think the Chinese company wasn’t a good choice for Swedish Car.
                  But actually VOLVO CAR works very well and keep its reputation after the acquirement.
                  The Geely fullfills its promise very well ,the manufacture and R&D still are in Sweden at least now according their agreement or whatever legal document it calls.
                  Is this example not good enough to convince your thinking about the method how Chinese do the business and how they rise the money and invest money? Well it could be that you guys don’t understand the way and culture of Chinese company and economy ,but it should be a reason that you guys criticize and show your skeptisms time and time again, that is absolutely unfair.

                  In our two cases , there are many common things.
                  Geely is much smaller than VOLVO, it also finances from the Chinese Government, it pretty like YONGMAN wants to buy SAAB.
                  I can’t criticize it that if all the way of their financing are legal in China, Really can’t.

                  • 1. There are at least 4 instances in the 6 months where Youngman signed contracts and memorandum of understandings MOU’s where they promised to pay certain money to Saab, either not the full sum or nothing arrived. If you want to know more about it, read the history here at SaabsUnited, it is all very well documented. You can also find press-releases from Saab covering that during Saab’s last 6 months.

                    Youngman was never a preferred partner for Saab, but it was the only partner that would work with Saab because Saab would have died before the others would have made up their minds. Saab actually had discussions with Geely, Great Wall, HawTai and many others before they even talked to Youngman at all…

                    2. In Europe when companies make business-plans they are not allowed to be funded by government money, simple. A fully funded business-plan shows that there is enough money in the company and that there is sufficient money coming into the company in order for it to do what it wants to do. This money must be privately earned money, no government involvement is allowed.

                    You simply can not write that you’ll get the money from the government on such a business-plan. In Europe it is not an acceptable means of funding. In Europe it is forbidden for a government to support a private company since this is not considered fair trade.

                    3. Youngman does not produce enough cars or busses in order to justify such an expanse. They can not even produce enough to keep their current factories operational without losing money. The only reason for this land is that they expect to build Saab’s in china and thus move production away from Trollhättan to China!

                    4. Youngman is a private company with no public insight and Youngman does not abide by any market rules in such. Geely is a public company listed on the stock-exchange and thus gives great insight and credibility. BIG difference there!

                    5. I will say it to you once more in plain English! WE ARE NOT IN CHINA! So Chinese law does not apply. SAAB is in Europe and Youngman has to comply with EU Law regardless of what the chinese government might think about it…

                    I am absolutely sure that if Youngman buys Saab they will move it all to China! I really hope I’m wrong though, honestly I really do… =)

                    • your main point is the funding issue.

                      Yes we are in EUROPE.

                      Would you please tell how could Ceely financed its money from Chinese Government when it bought VOVLVO, and it is still approved by Europe law.

                      Thank you!

                    • Your commends are full of GUESS. THOUGHT without logical evidence just like someone else.
                      I am sorry for that!

                    • This just shows how ignorant and stupid your comment is…

                      Volvo made a deal with FORD

                      Youngman is trying to make a deal with the GOVERNMENT!

                      BIG DIFFERENCE!

                      I promise you buddy, we are not guessing, we’ve got better sources than you can ever imagine and thats what pisses you off… I’d urge you to back down before you make a bigger fool out of yourself than you already are…

                  • People are worried about Saab turning “Chinese.” And thats a utter blatant lie, Saabs will be made/engineered in Sweden, by Swedes, and funded by the Chinese. Thats all, Saab will not become “oriental” as some people fear.

              • Cs, I wouldn’t normally respond to comments like yours, but to say you don’t want to raise the racism topic is actually bringing it up and should not be tolerated. You talk of SU writing about Indian and Chinese companies, I don’t get your complaint, they are Chinese and Indian companies. Not to mention that a lot of people like the said Indian company a lot. When people don’t like or are skeptical of your favorite company, it is not right to bring up stuff like racism. If you check far enough back in SU posts, you will see that Youngman was once a favorite here too and that their behavior and actions is what has had a negative effect on people’s opinions of them, nothing to do with anything else.

                • I am sorry if i raise the issue of racism.
                  Please stop talking anything about this.

                  Sincerely you don´t know and understand me.
                  YOUNGMAN IS NOT my favorite bidder either.

                  What i want to state here is that
                  Please keep fair .
                  Fair is one core thing for a forum.

                  Any inappropriate commends with too much personal bias and prejugdements really hurts somebody who loves SAAB.

                  • Anyboday is free to say what he/she thinks

                    If YOUNGMAN ´s behavior had a negative effect in your mind in some cases.

                    Would you guys please talk with this in one more gentle way, not like today´s topic ,with such personal bias ,aggressive without solid convince.

                    Please what i need is FAIR!

              • Personally I like Mahindra & Mahindra because I still harbor a hope (albeit a very unrealistic one at this point) that GM would let them pick up the production of the 9-5 (everything has a price tag…).

                GM has made it all to clear that GM already have a partner in China that they don’t dare to interfere with.

                That is a big point in favor of M&M vs YM (or any company from China) in my book.

                Many here cheered for a Chinese partnership over a year ago. Lots of water has passed under the bridge since then.

        • I tend to agree with cs here.
          I think we must not forget that beyond all the putative buyers, Youngman was the only one that put money to save the Saab for bankruptcy. Ok, they failed, but at least they tried and, at least I don’t know, whether Saab could have been saved anyway at that particular time. Accordingly, I think the critics on them now are a bit too harsh for me. In my humbling opinion what is left is that many of us are skeptical on the ONLY one company that risked something to save Saab. They were never my favorite but fact is that the administers have to make most money out of Saab’s cadaver to pay the creditors and they must not consider any future of Saab as a car company. That’s business folks.
          Certainly, I wish, no, I dream that Saab will arise again, but if Youngman or M&M don’t purchase all seven parts to keep together all parts of the former Saab, its over with “our” Saab that we liked so much during the past. The name “Saab” might label a car in the future, just like “Seat” stand for old but good Audis, or, if we are lucky, like Audi, as the more fancy and more sporty VWs.

          • There does seem to be a anti Youngman bent on this site. But please remember it was Youngman who could have bought Saab as an ongoing, non-bankrupt company. And it was when Youngman could or would not come forward with the money the Saab was forced to declare bankruptcy.

            None of the other potential buyers were in that posistion so it is natural to be skeptical of Youngman

            • Yes, I agree, but dont you think they just realized (hoped) to get Saab cheaper after bankcrupcy? I guess, that was a simple calculation, every successful business man or women would have done. I think everyone in the field knew on Saab’s troubles, not only Youngman. But only Youngman at least tried to act….sure they made mistakes, as obviously everyone engaged in this drama also. And the one been too sceptical against Youngman, please consider Volvo doing great under a Chinese ownership… (and again, YM was/is not my favorite but I want that we stay fair here).

              P.S. Please stop this unhealth discussion on racism. Till72’s comment does not at all read to be meant against any nation (by the way there is only ONE race of human) so please stop posting on this as such discussion has NOTHING to do with the spirit of Saab and real Sabb-aficinados!!!!

    • cs, what I wrote here is my personal opinion on one of the parties that are active in the bidding process, regardless of their origin. If a company from Germany had behaved that way I had not liked it either. Judging me by the tiltles and calling me racist is way out of line. You really try to find something that is not there.

      I’ve been watching those dealings closely ever since, spoke to people who gave me some insight in how things were going and built my opinion on this. What I am doing is publish my opinion and if you don’t like it you may express yours. But just attacking me makes no opinion.

      The sole reason I am here is to express my thoughts and I will continue to do that, even if some don’t like it. I’m afraid, you’ll have to live with that.

      • I am not attacking you, sorry for your misunderstanding
        whatever how much, how easy you could get the source in first hand,
        please show it and prove it.

        Here is a forum, as other saaber said, if what you said here was a commend ,that would be ok
        But you definitely post a article with too many personal bias and rise a argument without any help to saab current situation.

        I don´t really think it is swart.

        • You must be more stupid than we ever thought… Why on earth would we ever show who our sources are?

          If we did that nobody would ever tell us anything again…

          I get it, you love your China and thats ok, but that doesn’t make every chinese company and the chinese way of doing things the only right way to do it, come back down to earth man…

          • TIMR

            Be careful of your dirty words, personal attack just proves that you are totally weak.

            I didn’t mention anything about patriotism ,about how i love China in SAAB case.

            Don’t forget NEVS is also major own and controlled by Chinese company.
            In SAAB case ,i see lots of logical views about NEVS form SU, and i quite agree.

            Well how lucky ,I am in the earth 🙂
            Specially i have been in Sweden for many years , and see some ” interesting ” something from some Swedes from my view. I don’t want to point out that cause it dosen’t give any help to SAAB.

            I think the most the Swedes are rational , they do things with a conscientious and careful way.

            If you guys really want to convince somebody , present the evidences.
            Simply :

            and those stuffs are more acceptable than dirty word and personal attack.

  9. Another thing is youngman have probably seen alot more of phoenix than any other bidder, as they have been involved with Saab for a while, this may have prompted them to bid so much.
    Yes Till I do worry also they may be bidding too high and beyond their comfort zone, but they have really been forced into it to combat the political forces at work here.
    Remember to get the financing needed they have had to convince some very nervous bankers, so their business plan must have looked positive.

  10. I think that if Youngman was late in the past, sometimes, for sending money and quite prudent , it’s certainly because they didn’t want to loose too much money like Pang Da did.
    Why should they give millions to a company they’re not sure they will own ?

    • Well, NOT giving money is a sure way to make certain that wou will NOT own it.
      And being too late is cutting it a little too close.

  11. I speculate no more, soon I end to hope.

    But for me the YM the only way to see a SAAB again.
    M & M seems to be gone and NEVS are just looking for technology
    for their own research …. not to build any cars. Not the whole package (Parts).

    Tired of faith, hope, and these shifts each day between joy and despair.

    SO…Sell to the best bid so we can get on with whatever there to be.

    Just hope I can find a new SAAB next time I replace the car.
    However, I have no intention of buying any “radio controlled golf cart”.

    We can only be spectators like the crowd at a football match,
    We can scream and cheer, but we have no control of the outcome.

    BTW, sorry for my broken English

  12. I respect and appreciate SU and the efforts of its writers, but this article hits a bit below the belt. The suggestion that YM could have bought Saab Parts to show they were serious sounds a bit disingenuous. They might as well hand Saab to NEVS on a silver platter. That would eliminate the major stumbling block for the administrators to approve NEVS by getting the Saab Parts issue out of the way.
    I have my doubts about YM (and NEVS and Mahindra), but YM is the only company that has put high risk money on the line, and not a small amount at that. Right now they have my vote.

    • +1. Agree completely. Totally childish argument!
      The whole text would have been OK as a comment, but for a post here I expect much more serious approach!

  13. I agree with everything till72 says, Youngman are just trying to drag out this process for long enough to p–s off the other bidders in the hope they will walm away. Youngman has had more than a few kicks at the can, its time to tell them to take a hike!!!!

    • I believe that the lection nr. 1 for the people aspiring to become bankruptcy administrators is to recognize this behavior and to cut it at once!
      Don’t you people with this, pretty relevant theory, think for a moment that the administrators are not taking this into the account.

      • The administrators are in charge. If they allow a certain tactic of a certain bidder then that is their choice.
        Everyone should have understood by now that there are no bidders out there breaking down the Saab gates to buy Saab for a lot of money. The Saab brand is tainted, Saab hasn’t really proven beyond a doubt to be a solid investment. Any bidder will try and minimize the financial risk, the best way of doing this right now is to keep the bid as low as possible. If that takes ‘dirty’ tactic then it takes ‘dirty’ tactics. Just stop complaining about the dragged out process, stop complaining about not understanding the tactics, stop complaining about the administrators, stop complaining…..etc….etc.
        Just sit tight and keep fingers crossed, burn a candle for Saab or do whatever makes you feel better. BECAUSE, it is out of OUR hands.

        (comment not directed directly at zippy or saabserb..)

  14. If YM plays a game than the administrators have to control the game and don’t watch the game: Set time lines, show how they see the balance of pay open depts, get the THN area a big company for the future and so on. Don’t try to get 105% feel in love with 97%. Otherwise no one is left in th end.

  15. Please VOLKSWAGEN step into the process, NOW!!! SAAB is the missing Brand in the Portfolio and a perfect enhancement for the North American market. Scania is already owned by VW, so the good old Logo could come back. AND SAAB is not much more expensive than Ducati. On the way to the biggest Car manufacturer in the world YOU need SAAB!!!

    (hope they hear me)

  16. And let us not forget that the neccessary funding had actually been secured by Youngman and was about to be transfered on a Friday, then at that eleventh hour VM received that email from GM saying under no circumstances would they ever give access to the licences. So to be fair to Youngman, VM immediately emailed them to break that news leaving YM no alternative but to withdraw leaving VM to call the bankruptcy.

  17. Although swedish, I have lived most my adult life in asia, working with both chinese and indian clients, having friends and family from both backgrounds.
    This is my own very personal observation;
    – India inherited the British colonial rule-of-law and legal system, making it very easy to do business there.
    – China is a very difficult country to do business, as there is much government interveniance in business, and very difficult not to get burned by different business deals. Sometime a contract can be worth nothing.

    From a product and design development background, I find that projects for Indian clients can be exhaustive, a long wided but generally a good outcome.
    For chinese projects things move very very fast, sometime with quality problems.

    As I see it NEVS (Swedish-Japanese-Chinese) offers a good combo.
    Swedish Engineering & Safety
    Japanese Quality & Marketing
    Chinese Speed & Financial strength

    As in soccer… A team needs players that complement eachother.

    • SAIC couldn’t get the rights to the Rover name from BMW, so after buying out Rover they mutated the name to Roewe:

      Which I always thought was just “Rover” with a Chinese accent 😀 Either way, it’s probably the “wrong way”:

      “The name “Roewe” originates from SAIC’s failure to acquire the Rover marque from BMW in 2005,[4] which BMW instead sold to Ford (and which was later sold by Ford to its current owner, Tata Motors, as part of the 2008 sale of Jaguar Land Rover).

      Composed of the Chinese characters Róng and wēi that together roughly mean “glorious power”, SAIC says it derived the Roewe name from Löwe, German for lion, but some believe that it is simply a transliteration of the word Rover. Loewe, pronounced much like Roewe by Chinese speakers, is also the name of a Spanish manufacturer of luxury leather goods.[5] The Chinese pronunciation of Roewe is closer to “wrong-way”[5] than “roe-way” although the latter may appear to be the correct way to say the name. Roewe’s badge, superficially similar to Rover’s, includes two golden lions.”

  18. Make Saab cars, not war! Can we please leave it here and stop about not accepting one another’s opinion . That’s a forum al about, giving your opinion and reading the ones of others. Accusing of racism or other politics : NOT here. Correct me if I’m wrong.

  19. NEVS, YM, M&M, ?????
    I do not like this never ending story and that the admins are unable to close a bid. I do not think that real Saab fans will wait for month or years until there will come some desition or not (and Saab will stay in automotive heaven).
    Hope for a solution in June 2012.

  20. O, yes. You are welcome with your electric nevs. While watching football we can charge your car! For me, in most of the days that I’m using my car, it could easily also be an full- electric car. But I’m not ready for it yet, and the cars aren’t either.

  21. There can never be a future with ONLY full-electric, plug-in cars.
    For us who live in apartments and park our cars in the street theres no possibility to plug-in.
    There must at least be a hybrid solution available.

    • I agree that presently full electric cars are not the solution for anything but some limited and special needs. But I don’t think you can say that there will NEVER be a future. We’re living in a present enviorment with a vast carbon-fuel infrastructure that has been created over the years. There is no reason to think that IF electric was the way to go, that an infrastructure to support couldn’t also be created with street plug-in stations in all locations. Another creative solution that I heard Renault was exploring was Fluence Z.E with a battery that could be swapped at a special battery swap station as quickly as you presently fill up with gas or diesel fuel. There are currently 4 such stations in Israel and they expect to have 40 by the end of the year. They also have plans for Denmark and Hawaii. It’s like a cell phone, the first cell phones were limited because the networks were limited, but they were built.

      Whether this will occur on a global scale, I can not say, but it’s certainly within the realm of possibility.

  22. We can not compare Youngman’s effort to buy Saab before the bankruptcy with now.

    Before they were to invest millions of € without getting nearly as big share of the company as they should have had, instead V Muller used them to finance the daily operation with Spyker being the major owner. The guaranties YM got was some parts of the Phoenix platform and as TimR wrote a couple of weeks ago those guaranties are useless… can you blame YM to not invest more money if they felt screwed over by VM/Spyker/Saab?

    My preferred owner has been BMW but that will not happen and it seem that M&M are out so that leaves us with YM. NEVS is a dead end for Saab and the unemployed workers in Trollhättan. That is the only thing we can be sure of since they don’t want to own Saab Parts (don’t they have the money to buy it or do they just want to get rid of the current Saab owners?).

  23. Why in gods name are we arguing????

    Saab doesn’t even DESERVE to be saved if its fans act this way. Saabista have some nerve to sit here and bad mouth ANY of the bidders when beggars are in NO position to choose!

    Put yourself in Youngman’s shoes for a moment. If you just met an associate that lived across town from you, would you give them money every month to pay their bills if they were struggling?

    None of the other bidders gave a quarter to help saab, let alone millions upon millions of Euro…all to have its fans trashing it. So what if Youngman made huge land purchases. We have no right to judge what or why they did that. We should all have the employees best interests in mind, and its short and long term employment in mind.

    Now this isnt to say that NEVS won’t offer employment, but do you REALLY think they will offer the numbers of employment that Youngman will?

    I completely agree with CS in his points. This article needs to be retracted.

  24. And again on TTELA, just recently somewhere between 2300-0000 local time.

    “June 11 2012
    Nevs may have won the Saab battle
    Stockholm / TT
    There seems to be electric car Consortium National Electric Vehicle Sweden (Nevs) who purchase Saab Automobile in bankruptcy.

    A Chinese source claims to Dagens Industri, which TTELA reported last week, that Nevs won the deal and that the contract is soon to be signed. According to the newspaper’s source the funding was crucial. The competitor Youngman made ​​a new offer last Friday, but their funding is dependent on the Chinese authorities NDRC – something that can take time. Nevs on the other hand, who wants to buy Saab Automobile excluding spare parts company, Saab Parts, can transfer the money as soon as the purchase is complete.
    – For this reason, administrators never took Youngman’s bid seriously, said the source to DI.”

    As someone said, here we go again 🙂

    • Of course, just a week or so ago, Indian media “sources” reported in TTELA that Mahindra had won. So, really, are we any closer?

      • I think its strange due to date on the article and fact that first comment on same article was made June 11 2012 at 2329.
        Im not used to news coming on TTELA so late at night. They usualy update news next day, but who knows…

    • Well, let’s wait and see. Not clear from that ttela article what kind of source that Chinese source has. Is it real news or is it just ttela citing citing a “Chinese source” who is just rephrasing old “news” from Swedish media?

  25. Can’t really see why everybody is so negative about YM? maybe it’s because they are the only ones we know someting about?

    The MasterPlan for all Chinese car companies from the Chinese govt is that 10 of them will be selected to conquer the world. So it’s a struggle for YM to get there, they are by no means into that party. Their tool to get there is to aquire Saab. They need in-house automotive excellence and knowledge which they don’t have at the moment. Their aim in the business is not to aquire the tools and bring it home to a factory, it’s not to bring home the Phoenix platform and use it in China, it’s to get automotive knowledge and to use the Saab Brand.

    YM will need to have a Saab base in Trollhättan to be credible on the-Chinese market as well as on other markets.

    As long as I have not seen one single argument from Mahindra why they would be the best owner of Saab I’d rather see them out!

  26. What are we all so unsure about. Regardless of who buys Saab it will not still be the Saab we have all come to love. The buyer will not care about all the loyal fans, they won’t give us warranties to build our trust, they won’t ask us for our input and they most deffiantly won’t care about where we want them built. We know this, so we should all just sit back and wait and see what happens.

  27. It sure makes a lot of sense for YM to SINK $700M into a broken car brand, just to get their hands on a still work in progress platform. Come off your high horses. (Referring to YM ONLY wants the technology and will move manufacturing to China).

    With 700M they could acquire competing platforms from other sources – what makes you think Phoenix is THAT special as to warrant YM to put that that much effort into acquiring it?

    The way I see it, they are in this for the long run.

    When VM came up with all the smoke the mirror, empty handed promises I don’t remember SU posted any OFFICAL staff articles calling him a liar. Indeed he was praised to be tenacious.

    But now it’s YM they are called ‘they had their chances’. Talking about double standard.

    P.S> Jason you mentioned in comments above it is your personal view and you have all the right to voice it – but don;t forget you are a staff writer, when you post an entry on SU it becomes a little bit more of your ‘personal’ opinion (least you didn’t state it in the article)

    But of course, my comment about what I see as racism coming from you is also MY personal opinion, but it got deleted and censored.

    Again, double standard huh.

    • But did they come up with the money? That has always been Youngman’s problem. Whenever it came time to pay what needed to be paid, they didn’t bring the cashier’s check for all that was promised or all that they claimed they would bring.

      If Youngman puts $700 million up for Saab and that money is here in short order, I will be glad to get on Youngman’s side. It is the money that convinces me.

      More than anything Saab needs money and they needed it six months ago.

      Mahindra is the only one of the bidders who has lots of cash and lots of assets and lots of net worth. So a Mahindra purchase is a no-brainer. These other guys, whose capital is questionable really need to come up with some serious cash.

      • There was a post on here not long ago by a member who stated why Mahindra would only bid so much. It dealt with their cost of borrowing in India vs. others possibly getting help from governments in the case of NEVS and perhaps, even Youngman. I did hear on CNBC this morning that India’s interest rates were driven higher to combat inflation over the past year, so there may have been some truth to that.

      • Compared to Youngman, Victor Muller is the real conman.

        My last comment on this has already been deleted, let’s see if this one will disappear too.

  28. I’m not totally comfortable with Youngman, but I’m even more uncomfortable with NEVS.
    It seems to me that ‘Saab’ is just a conveniently available brand to attach to it’s venture and NEVS
    cares little about Saab’s history and heritage. The fact that it doesn’t want Saab Parts only confirms this,
    and then there are reports that it can’t afford Saab Parts anyway. That being the case, how much money
    has it got to spend on new Saab cars?

    I wish Mahindra & Mahindra would finally play it’s hand.

  29. I rather have Youngman get the ticket, if its between them and NEVS. But if M&M are still in the picture then I’m all for them. I’m honestly not ready to give up Petrol Saabs, nothing will change my mind about that. EV tech is not ready for widespread mainstream market penetration, and Saab would die if its sole product was just EVs. Saab didn’t have a product issue, it had a money issue, and thats what the receivers have to remember. Who is the most fit to fund and engineer the future of Saab? That is what really matters.

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