Youngman and the Phoenix

Among others, reported yesterday that Youngman still claim to be owners of the Phoenix platform. As far as we know nothing has changed since we reported on this issue last time. What Youngman got are non exclusive rights to use the platform.

For sure Youngman has invested a lot of time and money in their Saab adventure but through various reasons failed to complete a deal. So I feel they are now trying to get something back which, as it looks now, will not be easy.

NEVS’ spokesman Michael Ostlund is quite clear in stating that the Phoenix platform and technology is part of their purchase. And I’d say that they should know pretty well what they bought.

60 thoughts on “Youngman and the Phoenix”

  1. It’s very understandable that they’re trying to get acces to the platform , or getting (a part of) their money back. After all they were the ones who pumped a lot of money in Saab back then. Could be an interesting case for some lawyers .

  2. A muller created total mess. This is bound to get tied up in litigation for years, by which time if this platform ever sees the light of day ( which I doubt), then it will be out of date anyway.

  3. I’m not surprised.

    The administrators wanted to kill Saab. Just to get the chance to be administrators one more time when Nevs goes bankrupt in one year…

  4. Hmm…Well it’s a good thing politics weren’t involved in any of this. Imagine if the Swedish Government had the nerve to get involved with this after doing nothing prior to the bankruptcy.

    Well I’m sure the receivers got the most money they could possibly get from the Saab bankruptcy and remained unbiased to any party. In my opinion the choice was made on viability in the current market, pure experience of the buyer, and financial likelihood of success.


  5. Youngman had all the time in the world to complete the purchase of Saab when VM was in need, but they played hardball and lost! YOU SNOOZE YOU LOSE!!!!

    • +1 bingo!

      It really doesn’t get any more complicated than that. This is the point where Youngman just needs to be a good sport and concede defeat. They weren’t exactly charitable to Saab in their time of dire need, so they shouldn’t expect any charity in return.

    • But if YM is now hiring former Saab engineers to make sense of the platform won’t that make the situation even more divided and difficult if NEVS suddenly sees the light and wants to build biopower hybrids with e-AAM… sigh.
      How about a collaboration between the companies if this is the case? (trying to stay as positive as I possibly can)

  6. Why do I have feeling that this circus is not over yet?
    NEVS is claming that they own PhoeniX. But the admininstrators say the god old “no comment”.
    Youngman’s representative also claims that Youngman owns Phoenix. True the rights are non-exclusive, but this in my world means that Youngman can also use Phoenix together with NEVS. Or am I stupid?
    Also an Gothenburg Posten article tells us that Youngman is planning for further development of Phoenix.
    Remember the finsl contract is not ready yet. This was only MOU done with NEVS. Everything can happen during the summer.
    And as I told in a comment for some time ago, Youngman will not give up that easy. I feel that there will be some interesting days ahead of us.
    One more thing is strange. NEVS are saying that their bid was not the highest and that they were almost surprised that they won the bid. This tells me one thing: NEVS were the only one ready to go on with the deal while there were so many things not ready, like the brand issue, th eissue with Phoenixs, and God knows what more. I must admit that now I realise how bad job the administrators have done. They simply weren’t able to manage the whole process until the begining of th esummer, and they found “suckers” ready to bite and acquire the mess. Sorry but I am affraid this is true!

    • Right on the spot! I have the same feeling that you have and it is very strange that the administrators choose NEVS because we all somewhere know that NEVS did not have the best deal for Saab and made a lucky shot.
      They now admit that they had a low offer for saab and where supprised that they where choosen for the deal. The administrators didn´t do what they where supposed to do, they did a bad job taking care of saab. There is something strange with this NEVS deal, it does´t smell well. NEVS is not the future for Saab and I totally agree that this is not the end of the saab soap opera. The deal is not set it´s only a MOU. Sorry.

  7. So Phoenix platform could yet appear as the basis of two products by different manufacturers.
    No different from Saab deals of the past like Fiat and Lancia.
    The difference this time is that Saab AB will determine which one, if any, carries the Saab badge.
    (Whoever builds in Sweden AND pays Saab AB a hefty premium for the licence……. ?)

  8. YM spent far too much time ‘dilly-dallying’ about with Saab and when push came to shove they didnt have the guts (or cash) to proceed with the deal.

  9. Not sure there is much to argue over. Phoenix isn’t close to finished. You can’t build a car from it anytime soon, if ever.

    • I thought Phoenix development was quite advanced as there was some 9-3SS ‘mules’ running around a while back with Phoenix underpinnings.

  10. As I remember, VM, made a Co’, based in the Netherlands that sold the rights to YM as part of the deal.
    So I assume either VM’s Co’ then gave YM’s money to Saab or did not.

    Was this one of the ‘late deals’ by VM that the administrators suggested should be ” *.
    There has been no talk as to what happened to some of those deals, although the factory sale, was put squarely in that ball park [unwound].
    Of course that sale has now been resolved by NEVs, who bought that share back as part of their deal.

    I for one, do not agree with all the YM bashing on here, and that’s not being on their side, just, business is business & 21mil Euros is alot to loose.

    The question all the YM bashers have to ask themselves is, If they were in YM position, would you keep pumping Millions of Euros, at that time [Particularly with GM’s stance]

    Beyond the Pangda money [35 mil euros], one assumes they [Pangda] are one of the unsecured creditors [beyond Saab’s UK property??].

      • It must have been the GM license thingy. Had they bough the company before bankruptcy they’d now owe GM 326 million dollars or billions of SEK (thanks to the preferred shares) BUT no right to build GM platform cars…

      • I think China’s NRDC was giving Youngman huge headaches right up to the end when all seemed to be approved and Youngman made it’s final last minute offer.

  11. Had YM closed a deal prior to the bankruptcy then they would have had to take on all the accumulated debt (remember that?). They would also have had to agree to SWAN remaining a significant ownership interest. IMHO there was no chance that anyone would have done that, which is why there were no other expressions of interest before the bankruptcy.

    In regard to Phoenix, it is quite possible that YM were misled into thinking that they had the real deal. Why on earth would they have paid a significant sum of money for it if they thought that all they were to get was a sneak preview? Their stance may well be a prelude to legal proceedings either to recover their monies or to clarify their rights to the technology.

  12. You never would have that Saab would be in such a mess but you also wouldn’t have thought that Saab would be so heavily fought after this far down the road .

    Tim, Can we please see pictures of the next 9-3 since it is not making it to production?

    • We have some photos and illustrations but I have promised mr Casteriota not to share them with anyone since he still has a lot of money invested in the design. They did after all spend more than 10 months working on the project without ever being paid =(

      I have been told that NEVS might want to use the design language…

        • For me it has taken a lot of time to get used to the design, but I have to say that it grows on me, in the beginning I was very skeptical, but I’ve felt that way about almost every new Saab ever launched and I’ve come to love them all so that is a good sign =P

  13. Youngman is being a whiny sore loser.
    They lost & are trying to stir up trouble(again?)!
    They should go home & lick their wounds & move on.
    Business ventures are a risk & sometimes you lose the money you put into the venture.
    Youngman needs to grow up!

  14. The rumours just before the bitter end internally was that the Phoenix design was not well received and that a revised version was in the making. I saw the car early last year on a screen and I was not impressed. I say good riddance if they redesign it. What ever carries a Saab name must have a smashing design, not summer hit nice but long lasting.

    As for NEVS and YM, let them fight it in the courts, seems as if YM may have a claim although the bankruptcy nullifies all contracts.

      • That looks okay and I’d probably buy one too, but it’s basically the old 9-3X Crossover Coupe (which I loved) with an Aero-X type nose on it. I think we need to move past the Aero-X and NG9-5 look now, and that is what I was hoping Jason Castriota might achieve with his new 900 hatch. Unfortunately I think it’ll need more than NEVS if that kind of car’s ever to see the light of day.

        • My fear was always that the new design would be rushed/cost too much when model range was far more important.
          Never put your eggs in one basket. It was probably exiting to talk about how the whole company lives or dies with the JC car but not very smart business wise if you’re in it for the long haul. Spyker was too much about taking chances and not securing survival if sales would take time to pick up with improved products. Which is exactly what happened. By the time people were ready to order cash had ran out.

          Hate to say it but the former Saab salesman from UK (“Saab Insider”) saw this coming 3 months into the production start in June 2010 but I couldn’t believe Saab management was so out of touch. Everyone knew GM and the Swe Gov’t had a desire to get rid of Saab ones they got the opportunity so nothing had been more important that saving cash before the 9-4X and 9-5 SC launches.
          Sorry for the old fashioned rant.

          • Net necessarily the JC car, but a 9-3 replacement would’ve been Saab’s bread and butter car (as the 9-3/900 has always been. The 9-5 was slow moving and I don’t think Saab was going to make much oof the 9-4x until the next gen (Saab built) model. I think Spyker made a number of small errors which cascaded. When it reached out for help it just got doors slammed in it’s face. Atl least it’s business plan made sense and wasn’t a hugely speculative one that relies on market conditions that don’t exist. Now who would that belong to?

            • A slightly updated 9-3 and a 9-5 WAGON would have sold very well in Europe. Remember those two got thousands of orders even before people were able to test drive them!

              Now NEVS is aiming to break even in ten years… Maybe EV’s won’t be an instant hit after all?

      • Castriota’s design looks in no way like this. This is indeed, old Aero X-type design language. Castriota was miles away from this.

    • If you saw the design early 2011, then you’ve missed a few updates since then. I last saw it in October of last year (up close and in real life that is, not on a screen), and that was not the same car that I saw in late 2010/early 2011. Personally, I thought the final design looked amazing.

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