Pres Release: NEVS has been chosen by TÜBITAK as its partner for developing a Turkish National Car

TÜBITAK, (the Scientific and Technological Research Council of Turkey) which has been assigned to develop “Turkish National Car” and realize this important mission, has chosen National Electric Vehicle Sweden AB, Nevs, as the industrial partner for the project.

The cooperation has started in June 2015 between Nevs and TÜBITAK and future industrial synergies in terms of development and manufacturing shall be generated with this cooperation. In the short term perspective this cooperation shall put Nevs’ assets to work and shall give Turkey quick access to extensive automotive knowledge and experience.

Nevs shall also provide its know-how in the developing of the business plan and establishing of the supply and distribution chains to TÜBITAK.

Together with the new shareholders Tianjin and SRIT, the partner Teamsun as well as the cooperation with Dongfeng Motor, the cooperation with TÜBITAK is an important step in building up Nevs as a strong automotive company with industrial, technological and financial partnerships.

“I am very proud to have this strategic cooperation in place. Turkey will be a long-term partner and we will both gain a lot from this cooperation. With Turkey’s focus on electric vehicles we also see this as an important step towards our vision of shaping mobility for a more sustainable future”, said Mattias Bergman, President of Nevs.

Facts about TÜBITAK

The Scientific and Technological Research Council of Turkey, TÜBITAK, is the leading agency for management, funding and conduct of research in Turkey. TÜBITAK was established in 1963 with a mission to advance science and technology, conduct research and support Turkish researchers.

TÜBITAK is an autonomous institution and is governed by a scientific board whose members are selected from prominent scholars from universities, industry and research institutions. TÜBITAK is responsible for promoting, developing, organizing, conducting and coordinating research and development in line with national targets and priorities. Further, TÜBITAK is one of the key institutions involved in the Turkish national car project.

http://www.tubitak.gov.tr/en

81 thoughts on “Pres Release: NEVS has been chosen by TÜBITAK as its partner for developing a Turkish National Car”

  1. Indroducing Turkey’s New National Car! (Drum Roll Please)
    The Brightwell Holdings 9-3 !!!!!! Available in silver or black. It might look like the same “Saab” 9-3 from the last 15 years, but it has redesigned headrests.

  2. It would be news if their partner was Apple, but this is what they’ve come up with after years of doing nothing,,,,,frankly, I’ve lost all faith in NEVS, not that I had much to begin with….and even SU is behind the times. I saw an article about the this on saabplanet.com three days ago.

    • At this point, Saab AB needs to get lawyers deployed to remove “Saab” from NEVS. The name shouldn’t be on NEVS website, or on their building in Sweden—-it shouldn’t be anywhere within the NEVS universe. It’s time to separate the two aggressively. I don’t know the particulars of the agreement, but I would think Saab AB should have the right to exercise their ownership of the name by removing it from this clown car of misfits.

        • NEVS and Saab should be completely separated, never to be aligned again! Allow for Christian von Koenigsegg to offer cars known as “Saab by Koenigsegg”. I think deep inside, Christian’s competitive fire wants to go head-to-head with Munich, Stuttgart, and Ingolstadt. Koenigsegg’s engineering greatness needs to be appreciated by more than the top 0.000001% of the population.

  3. Haha! This is the best laugh I’ve had all day! “puts Nevs’ assets to work…give…access to extensive automotive knowledge and experience”. What a joke.

  4. This might be good news for the NEVS followers but at this point I’m not sure this has its place on a Saab blog. I fail to see any relationship with Saab. Might as well start a thread on the VW dieselgate here as it has as much connection with Saab as this Tukish story.

    2T

    • VW dieselgate is fascinating to me. I am very curious to know how high up the chain of command it was known at VW that they were cheating on the emissions testing. It was somewhat telling to me how quickly the CEO stepped down. Things are going to get a lot worse at VW before they get better—-if they ever do. This is going to be financially crushing to them.

        • Actually Mick, I don’t think NEVS feels embarrassment, as in order to feel humiliation, you have to have some level of perceptive ability—and they don’t. This is more embarrassing to fans of Saab—-especially people who are car nuts and were identified as “The Saab Guy” (or Saab Gal) in the neighborhood. Now we have to answer for NEVS stupidity. My co-worker asks once in a while, when “Saab is coming back.” I used to tell him “Oh, they were bought by a Chinese company who is going to specialize in making electric Saabs—not sure yet when they will get back dealerships in the U.S. but Saab is still around.” Now I just change the subject when he asks.

  5. Tubitak is pretty much a Turkish government controlled institute. It is supposed to do a lot of basic research, but I’m really sceptical. Why? I do big science myself and I have never ever anything or anyone encountered that came from that institute which or who made enough of an impression to be remembered. And also, WTF is a ‘Turkish National Car’ supposed to be? Something with crocheted little curtains comes to mind.
    Jeez, I don’t understand why I’m still reading Saab news. Maybe I’m still hoping that I wake up one morning and that NEVS has folded and everything has been sold to a real carmaker?

  6. Interesting reading in the post of this article. Is this one of Victor Muller´s old connections? From an “innocent” bystanders position I am puzzeled by a Turkish Governmental agency. Turkey has never been known for technological or scientific exellence. Ther might have been something during the Osman empore or the time with Alexander the Great. Wish NEVS goodluck in their business endeavours but I guess the SAAB brand name could be an issue with SAAB AB.

  7. Well this is a head scratcher.

    Turkey has a well established car manufacturing industry. It already makes well over a million units a year, which puts it not far behind the UK in output. For example, all the Ford Transit Connects ( the small car based van) are made in Turkey.

    Aside from the concept developing ‘a national car’ , which sounds distinctly Soviet, you would think they would look inwards, to talents that obviously already exist in the country, and not have to pull in expertise from a Chinese company in Sweden, who currently doesn’t make any cars, and brings to the table an aged generic GM world platform.

    Sounds like a government/think tank project, not a commercial auto industry led one.

    • Saab AB seeks cooperation with Brazil in the development of the next generation Fighterjet.
      In the same way, Nevs will only be able to develop technology through cooperations with other countries.
      More co-development projects = the likelyhood of being able to design n develop its own models increases.

      Nevs is the only realistic way to ever make ‘saab’ cars again.

    • He still tips the scales at near 20 pounds, though he’s lost a little weight (used to be over 20 pounds). He’s still orange too. Now 14 1/2 years old.

  8. I think this article should be retitled…….Depress release!!!!! Because that is exactly what it has done to me!
    It saddens me deeply to see that a new so called press release scrapes the bottom of the barrel of desperation.
    I mean really, is this some kind of joke? If this were April 1st I could understand it. This most certainly is no Turkish Delight!!!
    “Scientific and Technological Research Council of Turkey”, really?
    “Turkish National Car” really?
    It goes on to say ” has chosen National Electric Vehicle Sweden AB, Nevs, as the industrial partner for the project”. Chosen from what exactly? A desperate Dan comic?
    Chosen as in no other serious or viable partner wanted to know!!! Again this should be reworded “chosen as we had no other option”………..
    If I were not crying into my tea I would think this was a spoof wind up from a comic strip but I am afraid folks this is now classed as some kind of exciting breaking news that should grip us all with anticipation and excitement. Ah yes that reminds me, I really must clear out my garden shed………..

    • The way I understand it, it came down to partnering with Porsche, BMW or NEVS. Tubitak was very interested in building on what NEVS has already done with the 9-3. Porsche and BMW had some good things to offer, but NEVS let it be known that they wouldn’t be distracted with other “challenges” like building and selling cars—-that the others are burdened with. Apparently, NEVS had nothing else going on so they could commit 100% of their effort to the program.

  9. You thought I was joking. I thought I was joking. People: It’s no joke. Wow. Add the www or http or whatever. Enjoy the read.

    .leftlanenews.com/turkish-government-buys-rights-to-saab-93-89982.html

    • Wow! I’m flattered. Really NEVS? Sell the only car that you can build? How stupid can NEVS be? What’s the point of a new factory with nothing to build? I just lost all hope for the rival of Saab. It sure isn’t happening when NEVS is in charge.

  10. It seems a bit of asset stripping to me. They’ve sold the old 93 off to the Turks and they’re gonna build it from scratch mostly. So NEVS dont build anything still but they’re building a new factory in china to build something and still have a large factory in Sweden building nothing!!

    • Well, I guess the Turks could do a lot worse than the 9-3 for a national car. That’s a proven model. I wonder if the wagon and convertible models of the 9-3 will join the sedan in being Turkey’s national car? I’d love it.

  11. I wish NEVS never bought Saab. It’d be better to bury Saab name and just enjoy last 9-3s and 9-5s that left Trollhattan. Now we have to watch that bloody disaster.

    • Jacko: If NEVS never bought Saab, the alternative might have been for another company to do so—-such as India’s Mahindra, who actually build vehicles—-everything from tractors to small SUVs, diesel pick-up trucks, small cars, etc. There’s not doubt that they were interested, in much the same way that Tata was interested and purchased Jaguar, or Geely purchased Volvo. Now Saab was not nearly the asset/value of those companies—-but the name and old technology was enough that if the right deal had been worked out, Mahindra might have very well made the purchase. I believe if that had happened, they would have been building cars in Sweden, keeping some jobs there, at least for the short term. Later, they might cut back on production there—-and limit it to a big flagship model while building other Saabs in lower cost climates—-but the point is that there would still be a viable Saab, in my opinion, if they had gained control over the company. I think the bankruptcy receivers heard “renewable, electric, China…” and the fix was in, again, in my opinion. They manipulated the process to give NEVS the inside track. They threw others off the trail. Then they “opened it up” again but by that time, others had moved on or couldn’t reasonably do an analysis and put a proposal together within the deadline. Think about this: Those Receivers deadlined a decision and shoved Saab off on NEVS. Since then, what has NEVS done? Exactly.

      • To rehash old arguments, the difference between the Jaguar, Volvo takeovers and SAAB is that Jaguar and Volvo had existing products to sell, as a result of GMs denial of the rights, SAAB did not. That drove away most potentially interested parties. Only Mahindra apart from NEVS retained any interest, and according to the documents Tim posted here, the name issue was at least part of the reason for Mahindra’s withdrawal. . I see no evidence of manipulation on the part of the receivers, their job was NOT to secure the future of SAAB, but gain the best results for the creditors in a timely manner.

        I am surprised at the comments on this topic, NEVS made it clear that part of their plan was to do work for other companies, and that is what this is. The Turkish cars will not be called SAABs. Whether the Turkish companies plans are wise is another question, but if they want to buy technology and an old platform from NEVS, while shouldn’t NEVS sell it to them?

  12. Guys, get yourself together! Depression, embarrassment, what on earth? Your behavior is childish. This news doesn’t say anything about development of SAAB cars, so it is terrible, awful news? How come? You only count news about SAAB as good news, but please tell me where is this news going to come from? Tell me how can SAAB get a chance to exist? But in this real world, under this circumstances, not in some fantasy possible world where VAG , FCA, BMW or some other three letter behemoth agrees to pour billions in the company so that you could be happy. In the real world they have to utilize their every asset in every possible way. That’s what they’re doing. When SAAB sold platforms to BAIC it wasn’t embarrassing, but NEVS selling platform to Turkey is super embarrassing. Yeah, right.
    Stop expecting the news that NEVS have regained the rights to the name to come any minute, because they have a lot of work to do before this can become even theoretically possible. They are doing this work, trying to become a more or less self-sustaining company. I will ask anyone who says NEVS don’t intend to develop their own line of cars this: if this were true, then why did they take 10 billion RMB from Bank of China and almost 600 million USD from China development bank? That’s more than 2 billion USD, why would they need this money if they were to only offer engineering services to others? Calm down and get down to the ground.

    • How can SAAB get a chance to exist? Precisely by having some major automaker such as VAG, FCA or BMW take over the brand and operations and invest in it. One may argue that it is unlikely to happen, and that may be true, but it’s the only way SAAB may realistically be revived. NEVS? Forget it!

      Oh, and your accusation that people here are “childish” is uncalled for. Common courtesy suggests that you apologize and retract said accusation.

      • Please don’t teach me courtesy, when here there are people, you included, who use really offensive words referring to people who are not here to respond, and you find nothing wrong in this. You enjoy it actually. That’s why I can’t accept that you find the word ‘childish’ offensive, I can’t. Especially when we really see absurd behavior from some commenters. Courtesy involves respect and many here obviously don’t know what respect is. Many here, you included, don’t respect people outside this forum and don’t respect people on this forum, because when you respect a forum you don’t act like a troll. You have acted like a troll, repeating certain opinions over and over again without being able to defend them in a meaningful way when challenged, but this haven’t stopped you from repeating the same things again. So don’t tell me what respect and courtesy is. You know nothing about them.
        Nothing makes it obligatory that only a three letter behemoth can make a company successful. I have already discussed this with you and have no intention to repeat myself, especially when this has no effect on you.

        • To appeal to your common courtesy is clearly an exercise in futility, as your response is not to concede, but to double-down on the insults, with some mischaracterizations and straw man arguments thrown in for good measure. Oh, well, at least now I know what kind of person I’m dealing with…

          • I haven’t insulted you anywhere, neither have I used mischaracterizations. I find it hypocritical that you have said nothing in cases when people have used words like ‘idiots’ to characterize other people, but now you are very offended by the word ‘childish’. Interesting use of double standards. You chose to remain silent in those cases, please remain silent now.

            • It is nonsensical to complain about what personal example I purportedly constitute on this board as an excuse for not doing the right thing, i.e. apologizing to the posters here (not me in particular) for unfairly calling them childish. The fact that it was I who suggested that you apologize (as opposed to someone whose track record you would endorse), does not mean that the suggestion itself was without merit.

              Anyway, I’ve wasted too much time on this, and it’s time for me to get some sleep, let’s just say I don’t expect to wake up and see miracles… “God natt allihop”.

              • Allow me to disagree with you. First of all, personal example does matter and does give you or takes from you credibility. It does matter if the one accusing you of stealing something is a thief or a person who has never stolen anything.
                Second of all, I haven’t used your behavior as an excuse not to apologize for what I said. I used it only to show you don’t have the right to accuse me of supposed usage of offensive words. I haven’t used it as an excuse for what I said because I don’t have anything to apologize for. I stand behind my words. I don’t think childish as a word is offensive, neither as a stand alone word, nor in the particular context. I used the word to characterize certain behavior with the purpose not to offend, but to cause self reflection from the people involved. If I tell you you are doing something unreasonable it is not with the aim to offend you, but to make you rethink what you are doing. This is normal communication between people.
                I wish you a good night.

                • Avelik: Your approach is very analytical, patient and measured. But if I may ask you to reflect—-please imagine yourself detached from the situation—-an outsider, charged with reading a couple years worth of posts here. Do you not see that perhaps you are giving NEVS the benefit of the doubt when they’ve not done anything to deserve it? It’s one thing for some of us to be, perhaps overly critical of them. I did try to give them a chance for the first year—-but at this point, I have zero confidence that they will ever achieve anything worthwhile. Okay, maybe that’s too far in a negative direction. But I submit to you that always having an explanation that basically explains away NEVS failures—-explains away NEVS incompetence—-that is too far in the other direction, approaching Pollyannaville, and I don’t see you as a Pollyanna.

                  • The thing is, Angelo, that for the last months I haven’t seen failures from NEVS. They are actually moving in some direction and accomplishing things. These things may not be what some people hoped for, but this doesn’t make these things failures. The reason why I am giving them the benefit of the doubt is that l’m aware of the fact that accomplishing something in the automotive industry is hard, much harder than most people here realize (judging from their comments), and that it takes long time to see meaningful results. That’s why I am in no hurry to jump to conclusions, unlike most who have the conclusion even before taking the time to consider the facts. To me this is wrong and makes no favor to anyone.

                    • Good posts Avelik. Yes some people here are running too quick into conclusions, and in a way competing in being sarcastic. But joking is maybe funnier than being patient? I suppose people here are frustrated after so many years of turmoil. As I see it, the last half year or so, brought us some real news and a company that is now standing on its own feet. For the moment, I am satisfied with that.

                    • Hakan: Wouldn’t a company have to be making profits to truly be standing on their own feet? I don’t even consider Tesla to be standing on their own feet, though they are a lot closer to that endeavor than NEVS is. Sorry guys, but I don’t see “real news” as it pertains to Saab cars. This is “Saabs United” a forum for people who own Saabs or are Saab enthusiasts. I think to most of us, “good news” would have something to do with restarting production of Saab cars—-news that’s somehow related to that, even if it’s planned for the distant future. I know that it’s good news if people in Sweden can go back to work as engineers or other support positions, even if it’s not working toward building Saabs. I do get that. But again, as nice as that is, it’s not news directed at new attempts to build Saabs—-new plans to develop Saabs. I think that’s my frustration. I can’t speak for everyone else, but I can say that a confluence of factors led to a team coming in to “take over” who at least in my opinion, had/has no respect for the marque, no respect for owners and fans—-basically very little interest in the company they purchased. The purchase seems to be aimed at something, much, much different than preserving a Swedish icon—-and building on it for the future. This all seems to be anything but. I think Saab AB figured that out, too late.

                    • Angelo: I can agree on all things you write here in your latest post, despite your conspiracy ideas about the “take over”. I am also looking forward to good news, not only real news. I believe in the 350 or so employees at NEVS. As I receive it from articles in ttela, they seem also to be loyal to NEVS and their visions. The Tubitak news, is perhaps not directly related to future saabcars, but maybe this alliance will improve NEVS possibilities to develop future saab cars. If we are to see some new saabs in the future, I guess it is NEVS who is going to make it happen. But that is of course still to be proven

                      Saab on

    • Did you cut and paste my link? Apparently, they’re developing the 9-3 to be Turkey’s national car. That’s fine, that’s nice. As I said, maybe they’ll get the wagon and convertible too. It can be a “9-3 jamboree!” That line-up would still be better than a lot of 2015-2016 cars being sold right now. And Avelik, BAIC has been anything but embarrassing. They’re actually building cars—-building cars based on previous generations of Saabs. I wish they exported them to the U.S. They’d find buyers here, believe me.

    • I see that BAIC highlight the ‘SAAB-based turbo technology’ as well as ‘Japanese transmission’ in the brief online blurb for the A5, the top ot their range. That is actually some compliment for such a large manufacturing group and illustrates the remaining power of the Saab brand in the market. However, we might argue with the statement that the A5 is the ‘the first turbocharged sedan in the world’. Perhaps something was lost in translation?

      • Maybe with the sentence “The A520T/A523T is the first turbocharged sedan in the world, combining a power scope of 150-184w and a torque scope of 290-350Nm.” they want to say that it’s the first sedan having these particular power and torque characteristics which is certainly not true, so in any way this sentence sits strange. It is not unusual to encounter such sentences while reading promotional materials from Chinese auto companies. Anyway, BAIC deserves congratulations for what they have done in terms of product development. A thing I don’t get, though, is why they designate their sedan range with the letter A in the foreign markets, when they have a perfectly fine naming system built around the letter D in China. ‘A’ is used by many manufacturers, while ‘D’ not so much. But strange and unconsistent naming schemes is another thing typial for the Chinese auto makers.

  13. Well, NEVS own Saab now. It’s been over 3 years by now and not a single word about making new Saab cars, just nothing at all. Look at all the news we received lately – they are teaching Trollhattan staff to speak Chinese and getting involved in developing Turkish national car. How is that related to what we’re waiting for? And how long do we need to wait? Even if it meant to be in 3 years time or 5 years time – I’m still happy to wait, but now I don’t know what I’m waiting for. Should I start saving money for new Saab or rather give it up?
    I just don’t get why company that bought Saab in 2012 after 3 years says nothing about starting production of cars? Instead of that we’ve got plenty of news related to some weird things.

    • Well, you should understand that given the current relationship with SAAB AB they can’t freely talk about their plans about SAAB. But during these 3 years they have talked about what cars they want to make on the Phoenix platform, including presenting a possible model range. That’s not nothing at all.

  14. I think that the Turkish government wants to move from just having a plant that builds others’ cars to having its own industry capable of building its own cars. They may start with someone else’s design, but that is actually a good step forward for them.

    As far as NEVS is concerned, this is the sort of thing they intended–work with partners, even building someone else’s cars in the Trollhattan plant, if I recall. So I am not surprised about this. It’s almost as if NEVS is an industrial consulting firm–we will do this for you, that for them, etc. If this Turkish entity has rights to use the 9-3 platform, and BAIC does as well, then clearly NEVS can “license” the technology to others as part of its overall plan. The article that Angelo referred to also indicated that they wanted to make an all-electric version of the car at some point, so that dovetails into NEVS’ plans as well.

    I am not trying to defend NEVS vis-a-vis the Saab brand; I am just saying that this kind of endeavor is almost not news for NEVS. And it’s a mistake to denigrate Turkey as being some antiquated, backward third-world country full of camels. It is actually fairly-well developed and emerging as a power in the region.

    What will happen to the Saab brand is still unclear, if there even is a future for it. But there is no chance in hell at this point that a white knight will ride in and save the “Saab as we knew it” brand from NEVS or anyone else, so we really need to let that go. The prospects for a “Saab” to be built in Trollhattan, at least a Saab we could recognize, are very very slim. Maybe if they do develop a electric version of the 9-3 that the Turks could utilize, as well as their Chinese owners, then maybe that could be built in Trolhattan, but there are a lot of “ifs” and “buts” in that scenario.

    I think it is worth hearing about NEVS news like this, as it gives us a sense of what is happening (or not) to the brand. But the Saab faithful need to be realistic. As the man said, “the times, they are a changin’ .”

    • Good summary and all true. But I do think it’s sort of a stretch to believe that for the long term, that factory in Trollhattan will be used to build cars for export to China or Turkey. As people here have been saying for the better part of there years, that’s economically upside down. This is why I was so opposed to NEVS originally—-when I heard the idea of building electric cars primarily for China. That factory is high cost—-perhaps, depending on currency, it’s still realistic to build there to ship to North America and other parts of Europe, where the higher prices related to a higher wage group of employees can be absorbed. But Swedish labor and shipping to China? No.

      • I still don’t get why people here continue to say their primarily plan was to build cars in Sweden to export to China. They announced plans to build a local production facility very early on exactly with the purpose to allow better access to the Chinese market. They were going to export in the beginning but this doesn’t mean their long term strategy was built around that.
        And I will tell everyone who thinks that NEVS has no interest in other markets than China and after building the Chinese facility they will close the Trollhättan facility, that no Chinese company with access to western markets will easily give it up. Chinese companies are becoming increasingly interested in developing presence in foreign markets and Trollhättan and Saab give exactly this.

    • Things would have been different if NEVS’ Chinese investor had not pulled out. I am not saying that NEVS’ original plan would have succeeded but if their access to capital had not been cut off, production of SAABs (including the EV) would have gotten further along than it did. It would have been interesting to see how things played out had the original financial structure and related Chinese market access been maintained.

      Given what happened, it is understandable that SAAB cars don’t seem to be part of the current plan.
      Nonetheless, NEVS appears to be doing what it can to generate revenue, and the fact that they are building a workforce could be an indication that they have confidence in their projected revenue streams. However, as you point out Paul, it isn’t realistic to expect that revenue from the sale of SAAB cars (at least as as we think of them) is included in those projections.

  15. Are you guys pretty sure NEVS has license for Phoenix platform? I was in Trollhattan Saab Museum last summer and couldn’t see Phoenix so I asked staff member about it and been told the only one existing Phoenix was damaged during transport. Now I’m thinking if that’s true or rather NEVS didn’t want Phoenix to be exposed to the public if they really do something based on that platform.

    • NEVS owns the Phoenix platform. The Phoenix concept car was damaged during transportation from an auto show or to an auto show (from New York to Sweden, if I remember correctly). There are pictures of it on the Internet. The fate of the concept car is not relevant to what NEVS can do with the platform in terms product development. It is still interesting to know where the concept car is stored, though .

        • Swade had an article with pictures about the incident on his blog Swadelogy, but this site is currently down, so you won’t find the article. The car wasn’t car crash – type damaged, it wasn’t totaled, but some of its parts were broken. It looked totally repairable, so I wonder were it’s now, it could still find it’s way to the museum, if something else hasn’t happened to it in the meantime.

  16. That is a good question, and I have forgotten whether NEVS has those rights. If it does, then that provides a good platform for further development with its partners. Can someone speak to that??

        • Would you care to provide your reasoning behind your rebuttal ? Just saying you don’t think what Angelo said is true doesn’t hold your end of the argument.

          • I have provided my reasoning quite a few times in previous discussion I had with Angelo. To put it shortly, the Phoenix platform cannot be dated today, because it is not finished. You can’t give evaluation of the qualities of certain thing before it is finished because it can go through many changes until it is finished. It’s like saying a painting will be ugly by the time it is finished while it is being painted. You can’t say this, because you have no idea what it will look like.
            Phoenix is a name. If NEVS now make drastic changes in terms of engineering but don’t change its name, it will be a different thing, but still will be called Phoenix. The age of the name Phoenix is not directly connected to the age and engineering quality of what it designates.

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