The Brand question seems to still be alive

I know we have said that the brand name question is over. Well it wasn’t me, and I still repeat my sentence.

Show me a picture of the factory without the SAAB wording and I will stop talking about it.

New Saab picture, Sweden-style!
Still a SAAB factory?

I have lately seen two thing on the net that let me keep the hope. On the one side one NEVS Exec has answered to a question about the brand on a social network

Exciting news in that topic will come…

If the brand question was so clear you should expect no news about it as there is nothing to talk about.

On the other side the Chassis group at NEVS is searching for a Lead Engineer for Suspension Front. The job description you can find this sentence

… You will also have a leading role create “next generation suspension technology” with “Saab DNA” for next Generation Electric Vehicle. …

Why should they want to put “SAAB DNA” into their next gen cars if those cars won’t be allowed to use the SAAB brand. well they could the same strategy as Prince and call themselves “the car formerly known as SAAB”, but I don’t think so.

BTW, the manager Chassis at NEVS started at SAAB in the 1980’s so he should know what a chassis with SAAB DNA looks like.

I think that we will have to wait a little bit longer till know for sure, so for now the fighters have taken off with the SAAB brand name, but I think they are already preparing the runway for them to come back.

178 thoughts on “The Brand question seems to still be alive”

    • Incompetent? What do You know about that? Many of the employees at NEVS are former Saab Automobile employees. Are they suddenly incompetent now when working for NEVS?

      Seriously! What the F-K do you, Angelo, Mick E and a few more care about Saab AB and their fighter jets and submarines? Do you plan to buy anything from them? Can’t you be glad about all the jobs NEVS create and the possibility for new Saab Cars to hit the market? Do You want Saab Cars to be dead?! Are you people disturbed in some odd way or what? If you don’t like a company, stop read and write about it! Why do you spend so much time writing stupid posts about this? Can you explain that please!

    • If NEVS is that incompetent and nobody else around cares about Saab – maybe could I get the brand name? Me, personally, I know a lot about cars and the Saab brand heritage. I even managed to build a soapbox out of wood with some friends when I was in school.
      With my expertise, Saab could regain its former strength – at least for some of the people around here, it would be a far better solution than NEVS. THINK ABOUT IT!!!!

      FW aka GMVMNEVSififif

    • NEVS have not impressed anyone in the way they are running their business… …but is that really all that different from how Saab Automobile has been managed in the past?

      To me, what counts are the products they will make available over the next decade or so.

  1. NEVS might be so convinced about themselves and their uniqueness that a name change could be exciting news to them… as a way to confirm it.

    • Yes, I agree that the statement really doesn’t confirm any use of the Saab name. In my eyes it may just as well be a spin about why a name change is good.

      But I think it is more likely that he is talking about the new name to be used for the Chinese market, and it doesn’t have to do with the Saab name, at least not at this point in time.

  2. I have long been saying that Saab AB needs to sick their lawyers on NEVS and have this out. They need to separate NEVS from “SAAB” as completely as possible. What does that mean? I am not sure. I don’t know what their legal standing is, but they need to take care of this as quickly as possible. I am thinking that they should be able to force the name off the building somehow—-and a cease and desist from NEVS using the name in advertising or on their website. More difficult though, would be to separate NEVS from the history of Saab. If they want to show old Saab models in their corporate literature, website or advertising, I think it might be difficult to prevent them from doing that. And perhaps saying “Formerly Saab” and promoting the name change, might be permissible as well. I am not a lawyer, so I just don’t know. But I do think that Saab AB allowing NEVS to pretend they are somehow still associated with Saab is an enormous mistake—-these people at NEVS are, as Bradley so eloquently phrased it, “incompetent fools.” Bingo. Get rid of them already.

      • Can moderators block negative people from SaabsUnited? I’m tired of the darks ant want to reed realistic comments, and not all this about “incompetent fools”. Saab and Nevs is worth a lot better.

              • But it’s a very short time… Why not wait and see what can happen. I live a long way from Trollhattan, but I think Nevs is important for the town and for Swedish industry. I’m not a fanboy of the Chinese auto industry, but I think we have to work together. This is best for the future and will result in better cars for the worldwide market.

                • If we banned everyone who makes negative comments about NEVS, it would be a ghost town around here. I respect the moderators wishes because it’s their site and I’m a guest. If they want less negativity, I will honor that.

                  • Believe me, it wouldn’t be a ghost town. Every environment attracts the respective people. When the dominant mood somewhere is negativistic this attracts other negative people and pushes away everyone else. A change in the mood would bring changes to the way the whole comment section looks.

                    • For there to be a positive environment, perhaps NEVS themselves should say or do something positive to get us started. Four years of futility and failure—-that isn’t getting it done. Speak NEVS, speak.

                    • Monique, they are developing products that will be produced in their “ghost” factory. That’s how these things work.

                      Angelo, there have been news about Nevs almost on a weekly basis for the past several months. That’s a lot of positive talking.

    • That Saab AB does not seem to have made an attempt to remove the SAAB name from the factory etc. is interesting. I remember Tim posting here some time ago that the legal position as to who owned the SAAB name for cars was totally unclear. SAAB AB don’t want NEVS to use the name, but can they legally prevent them? I f Tim was right only a court case could answer that. So far neither side seems willing to test it in court. This has nothing to do with whether you think NEVS are competent or not, it is who legally can use the name.

        • And when Red j studied our posts about this, he reopened the brand name again. i can interpret the reactions on my posts to see if they make sense or not that’s all part of the game.

  3. I think an electric Saab is an interesting prospect.
    Shouting “incompetent” at the people at NEVS just because they don’t tell us everything is just silly. And does nothing to change the situation.

  4. There’s nothing “exciting” whatsoever about the prospect of NEVS getting back the rights to the SAAB name, on the contrary it would be a veritable tragedy. So if this is what’s about to happen, there’s no reason to get excited – anger would be a more appropriate response (except for the die-hard fanbois of the Chinese auto industry that frequent this site, of course, they won’t be able to contain their excitement and God knows what else).

    Now, what would be exciting would be to see NEVS and the China buddies exit the SAAB scene completely, and a serious automaker (e.g. Volkswagen) taking over the brand and the Trollhattan plant. But if that were the case, the word “exciting” wouldn’t have been used by a NEVS representative.

    • Another brand name for the cars sold in China isn’t a problem at all, and then we will see the next step with cars for the worldwide market. I don’t think this is over yet. There is still a chance to buy a Phoenix-Saab in the future. 🙂

    • So, a rebadged VW would be exciting, but we should be angry about a car designed and built from the ground up by Swedes in trollhättan using Saab DNA.
      [sarcasm on]Makes a lot of sense to me! [sarcasm off]

      • What car designed and built from the ground up by Swedes in Trollhattan using Saab DNA? Don’t tell me you’re still clinging to the NEVS pipe dream even after all this time? The day you wake up from that dream, you’ll end up angry too.

          • What they have as projects in the pipeline. it could be moderated by red J because from this moment on i may only speak about myself.

            • Monique, I only express my opinion, and so you can. I’ve never moderated or deleted any of your comments, although I would love to do it almost every second time.

              • Great of you, saabyurk. It is worth to mention one more time, becouse some people here have to learn use the brain! 🙂

                “So, a rebadged VW would be exciting, but we should be angry about a car designed and built from the ground up by Swedes in Trollhattan using Saab DNA.
                [sarcasm on]Makes a lot of sense to me! [sarcasm off]”

                • A rebadged VW would be progress, which we haven’t had since 2011. If a VW platform was given to Saab engineers to massage it, make styling changes, fit it with a proper turbo and build it in Sweden for export to Saabs traditional markets, I’d be thrilled beyond words. Sure beats the laughable, pathetic nonsense originating from NEVS.

                  • You can’t be serious!!! A rebadged VW… Take me away please!
                    Have You EVER drived av VW? It has NOTHING, absolutely nothing that could pass for a SAAB DNA. If that happens, then it’s over for good! NEVS build cars in the same factory and with the same people (at least many of them) as Saab Automobile. The only big difference is that they don’t use combustion engines. But you hate them cause they haven’t produced any new developed cars yet!? How many years took it Tesla to bring a car to the market? I can answer that myself. It took them five years to bring out the roadster. An electric copy of Lotus Elise. It took them seven more years to bring out the Model S. Their first car developed from ground to production. NEVS started less than 3,5 years ago… DO THE MATH!

                    • Roger: Tesla didn’t inherit a factory. And by the way, I don’t hate them because they haven’t developed any new cars yet. My issue with them goes way beyond that—-and I won’t rehash it all, except to say they have no plans to do anything with this brand or with the factory, that will benefit the vast majority of Saab’s previous markets and customers. They’ve been disrespectful and have shown a staggering disregard for owners, dealers, fans of the brand they purchased—–almost unfathomable and unheard of in business acquisitions. They’re tone deaf and they’ve had four years in the saddle now and seem incapable of communicating any sort of vision and frankly, unwilling and uncaring to do so. There’s no outreach to us—-and no reason for us to support them. Take the name away, once and for all. Please Saab AB, take it away.

                    • DO the MAth; 4 years of damage to the brand and infra ,dealers and suppliers, losing the brand name. Taking away saab from their original markets and give them no prospective. Not to speak what really happened. Hopefully to be positive a new era has begun for nevs.

                    • Monique, Nevs didn’t take away Saab from its original markets – the bankruptcy did. Nevs is reestablishing the company and unlike many here they realize the simple fact that they couldn’t reestablish the company by just returning to the old markets with whatever product they had available.

                      Angelo, Tesla didn’t inherit a factory – they bought one. Nevs do have plans for Saab’s old markets and have stated so from the very beginning, so what you’re saying is not true and looks quite ridiculous. Besides, their job isn’t to return to the old markets and make the fans feel as if there’s never been a bankruptcy. Their job is to make a successful company and given the situation Saab was in they couldn’t just continue doing what Saab did. And if you say they haven’t communicated their vision you haven’t been paying attention.

                    • Avelik:
                      They have a corporate website. Have they been updating it with this good news you’ve referenced in a couple comments? I see a series of disjointed blurbs—-and no follow-ups on them. Example: What’s going on with the Turkish National Car?

                    • Follow-ups come when something meaningful happens. The Turkish national car isn’t part of Nevs’s own business, they serve as consultants there, so it’s not their job to inform the public about every development of that project, which probably aren’t many given the early phase of the project. They have given information about their core business and it doesn’t look disjointed to me.

    • VW? Aren’t those the ones who were just caught red-handed cheating on their emissions testing?

      I agree. Had Saab followed the same strategy, they would have earned more money. To Saab, the emissions requirements of NA meant that they could not export their diesels there (so, no 9-4x diesel and no XWD 9-3X diesel to mention two disappointments Saab customers endured). To VW, the requirements were simply numbers on a piece of paper to be ignored with glee. Now one of those companies went under while the other prospered.

      (and which boss of a French car company was quoted as saying they made sure their cars passed euroncap, but they made no efforts to go beyond that?)

  5. If I was Saab AB then I will yes when NEVS have has shown what they can do. But, only If the car is build 90% in Trollhattan, then it can be called a Saab. China build cars can be a Caab, only.

    • Niels-Søren I think this is the point currently. NEVS will one day present the products to SAAB AB, and they then will decide about the brand.

    • People need to get over the notion that the SAAB (whether it be SAAB cars or AB) badge is too precious to put on cars built in china for the Chinese market. Every, I mean every, other auto maker has no hesitation doing so. I think if Audi/VW, BMW, Ford, GM and MB can get over it, even SAAB AB can as well. Hell, VW is making VWs for the US market in Mexico! Especially, given that each of those company’s brand is much stronger then even SAAB AB and each of their annual profit exceeds SAAB AB’s annual revenue.

      The issue is not where the NEV will use the brand, but if they have the resources to develop a product worthy of the brand and can legitimately take it to market without going bankrupt in 1-3 years. I am sure the ability to sell cars in china is a big part of the answer to this question. If they can’t use the name in china, we all know the answer to that question is no. So if it is a matter of building crappy Chinese SAABs in order to make real SAABs for the US/European market, I think that is a deal worth making.

      • 1) Saab AB isn’t in the car business, so they don’t have to “get over” anything related to the goofs at NEVS.
        2) I honestly don’t have any problem at all with the Chinese owning the name or having permission to use it—-like they do with Volvo. Geely is doing a spectacular job with Volvo. But where we part ways, at least for me—-is that if they have no immediate, short to mid term goals to bring this product back to Saab’s traditional markets, including the U.S. and Canada, among others—-and if they won’t go to England and have only a symbolic, representative presence in Sweden—-then I don’t want to see them have the name Saab. If this is primarily for China and always will be, let them come up with a new brand name and let Saab AB reserve Saab and maybe license it or do something themselves after I’m in the ground. NEVS can call themselves “Golden Empire Mighty Dragon Motors” to market in China.

  6. No comment on the brand subject. moderators will block it as my post about cypres, I will not be part of such a site.

    • There is always a line, and the way you and some others has talked about Nevs on a Saab-forum is not acceptable. I should also have deleted your comment about cypres if I had been a moderator.

      • I always try to walk the line, But if you take the privilege to attack me personal in a close combat be sure you have enough ammunition and open a certain swed frontline i will nail you down.

  7. There has been way to much negatively here. I have pointed this out before. At the same time some of the most negative people are some of the most committed and knowledgeable people. I think you must take the good and the bad. Also we have to remember there have been hundreds of “Sunday soldier” Saab fans who have disappeared from this site over the last 4 plus years. We need everyone’s passion, as long as it not profane. But understand this, if you are ever to see another Saab, it will almost certainly be turned out from the folks at NEVS, for better or worse.

    • A car with the name Saab, Phoenix-Saab, or something like that must have something in common with the industri in Trollhattan. Not just to take over the name for another car maker. I don’t think all the people who works in Trollhattan and China right now, will move to Wolfsburg from one day to another!

        • I’m not a moderator and can’t moderate any post. 🙂 I’m a guest here like you. What do you think about the name Phoenix-Saab? For me it sounds great; one part old and one part new. Another brand name for the cars sold in China isn’t a problem at all, and then we will see the next step with cars for the worldwide market. Most important is the cars itself and the design. And for sure they will produce cars also in Trollhattan, not only in China. But to get money they need to produce cars and minivans as soon as they can for the Chinese market. Some people think the most important is to never give the Saab-name back to Nevs. But I don’t agree. I think it should be very nice if the Saab-name were included in the next generation cars from Trollhattan. But we never know! 🙂

          • Sounds great to me as well, if the cars are to be made in Trollhatan, or at least designed in Sweden. Which I think would be the only reason why NEVS would want to use the name Saab. I think the fear we see here from Saab loyalists is that NEVS will abandon Sweden at some point and still use the name Saab. But here is the thing, the Chinese like everybody else, like the prestige of a fine European car brand. They can sell a lot more cars in China if they are called Saabs, than if they call them “Flying Dragon”, or something like that.

    • Nice post chris , To good and bad add the ugly , But a saab will never come out of nevs the bad and the ugly. The good is waiting to take over.

  8. For NEVS the Saab question is not an issue anymore and ask yourself, why would NEVS want to use a brand name that they can not control, the whole idea has no merit at all.

    SAAB AB is not interested in letting NEVS use the name and the only way NEVS could build a future with a brand name is if they own the rights to it, there is too much money involved for NEVS to risk having the name revoked again.

    It wasn’t only SAAB AB who learned a valuable lesson when NEVS fell into financial difficulties, so did NEVS. They learned that they could have the future of their whole product portfolio jeopardized by not having absolute control over the brand name, which is something they’ll never get from SAAB AB.

    Forget about a new Saab and look forward to something different, something new… hopefully something good! =)

    • As much as I like the SAAB name, I must agree with you. I think it’s in NEVS best interest to use a new name. I just hope it’s a good one. However, it must be a difficult job to choose a name. It has to work in multiple languages, and all trademark/copyright issues must be researched. Can’t just pick a name out of a hat, no matter how cool.

      • There is a very interesting white book that is given to all Lexus owners which is simply called “the book about lexus” which provides very interesting facts about the process of toyota coming up with the lexus name… its a very interesting read…

        • I never thought Toyota put too much effort in coming up with the Lexus name, the similarity with the German word for luxury “Luxus” is too big.

        • Nice post Alphonse Lexus find his way as a stand away brand name from toyota. some liked the link and some not or even unaware that they were driven a mercedes toyota .

        • I remember way back hearing on my car radio that Toyota was introducing a new luxury brand called Lexus. I laughed out loud and thought “Toyota? Luxury? That will fly like a lead balloon!” Shows what I know about such stuff. 🙁

  9. Why would SAAB AB want to again assume the now well exposed risks associated with licensing the name? Any potential licensing income will have little impact on their overall revenues unless the per vehicle royalty is so substantial as to make the vehicles uncompetitive
    in terms of price.

    • Because nobody is interested steve. Who cares about the present saabs? They have no value anymore. The dealers have given up. Even some site owners don’t care. This is now a nevs site.The winner takes it all and the losers have to fall. Congratulation nevs by finding a new brand name and all succes w/o the brand name. Is this positive enough? or are the guns loaded again

      • Steve let me know if orio ab and their partners can deal with this situation. And during the change let them check any outstanding issues on your saab. Succes.

  10. Great to hear some positive thoughts for once. NEVS have received two massive orders lately. More and more old Saab employees return to NEVS. My boss at Volvo resigned lately to go back to NEVS to be the manager of the electrical architecture. When NEVS can show that they have great products and a solid business I hope SAAB AB will reconsider the brand name. My guess is that the first batch of cars sold in China will have a local name as presented earlier. When it is time to go back to the european market, I hope Saab will be the brand name once again.

    • Wow that makes all our sideline whistling look lame, giving up a ‘safe’ job at Volvo and taking a risk with what is essentially a start up! That’s the ‘Go your own way’ spirit of Saab. I know I’m a bit of a NEVS doubter but with employees with that sort of balls who knows, they just might make this work!

      • Nice to hear SteveW that you know them personally.And that they have a good framework to get their ideas happen.Maybe it is now the right time to change to a new site name: Nevs united.

        • Huh? where did I say that?
          I have however in a recent post commented that the site should be renamed nevsunited of revert to discussing Saabs.

          • I would like oriounited because at this point, Orio is the most important entity in helping me maintain my Saab. NEVS hasn’t even blinked in my direction and Saab is dead. So Orio is where our loyalty should be for the time being I guess.

            • Hardly a fair comment.

              Nevs made an effort to revive the 9-3 in cooperation with Orio. Part of their reason for doing this was to help ease the supply of spare parts for the many 9-3s out there.

              Had one of NEVS’ major investors not abruptly pulled the plug, that strategy could have born fruit.

              Though it irks me that they went with a strange government sponsored deal, I at least recognize that they tried to do exactly what you say you wanted them to do: Support the old customer base.

              There were many who warned NEVS against resuming production of the 9-3. It was an ambitious plan to say the least. (and fwliw: I believed at the time that it was the right move, but it turns out I was wrong)

              It will take a lot of money and effort to get the factory going again. Hopefully the current investors finally understand this.

              • Rune: There have been several versions of this tale. The popular one was that NEVS wanted no part of producing that 9-3, but “The Province” (investor) forced them into it and then walked, leaving NEVS holding the bag. LMAO at NEVS lack of business skills, lack of judgement, lack of hutzvah—-the lack, lack, lack, just about everything, including brains apparently. Outreach to the old Saab base? NO, virtually none. I have followed this just about daily since NEVS was gifted the remains, and no, they’ve not lifted a finger to generate interest from the current owners—-save for a few symbolic gestures with no heart at all in those. What really happened? The version of the tale I gave, as I recall, was something Tim contributed. NEVS did NOT want to produce gas engine 9-3 cars. They were forced to. Then the investor skipped on them anyway. What a sad sack of fools.

                • First, let me just say that I am in the process of building a house. Last year I sold an apartment, so I have had a minor fortune resting in my bank account. I did not run out and invest my nest egg in NEVS. …Or in any other business for that matter. Few business plans make sense to me. People get rich doing stuff that… E.g. Larry and Sergey made a huge business out of a simple search engine… Completely nuts.

                  Secondly, NEVS are not alone in owning a particulary factory and then run out of money. Spyker, Koenigsegg Group and GM did the same thing. To me, the Koenigsegg plan made the most sense. Spyker tried to rescue that plan with less resources, but the plan was not resilient against delays (which, after all, is why Koenigsegg backed out). Both Koenigsegg and Spyker had investor(s) backing out (or being forced to).

                  AFAICT, in the previous two decades (nineties and the noughts) there were several periods were investors’ money were flowing over and it was not hard to attract ample financing. I am not aware of that happening so much this decade.

                  Swegov several times went to the bat fighting for Chinese investments because their firm belief at the time was that there was little money to be found outside China. For Volvo the result is (so far) a success story, for Stallbacka not so much (that GM refused to consider 100% Chinese ownership did not help).

                  Your criticism is over the top. I see no reflection on what you would have done differently given the same parameters. Found different investors? Where? Fought an overeager investor on an idea that, albeit expensive, would have kept the factory floor going? (and helped the spare parts situation) Reach out to the community more than they have? With what exactly? There is no product to sell. At least not yet.

                  Bottom line… NEVS cannot be that expensive to buy out at this point. Show me the money Angelo. If somebody out there can cough up a business plan (and the necessary funds) to impress SAAB AB, then I am certain the brand question could be sorted out to everyone’s satisfaction. Heck, NEVS stumbling along like they have done only helps this possibility… They are cheaper to gobble up now than they were a few years ago.

      • Really SteveW are their save jobs at volvo sweden? Is this written on paper that he can have the job till his pension?

        • That’s not what a safe job means. No job guarantees you eternal employment. But working in a high position in a profitable and steadily growing company is exactly what people mean by a safe job.

          • Yes Avelik this was the case in the past. Ford closed assy plants in eu and moved to other places in eu . There is no guarantee that volvo stays in sweden and belgium same as nevs. A high position is also no guarantee to find another employer.Unless you will leave your house and like a new job abroad in china.

          • Spot on Avelik. That’s why I put ‘safe’ rather than safe Monique.
            And jumping from Volvo to NEVS is indeed a very brave move indeed or based on information we have no clue about. The latter should not be dismissed. As Angelo points out we don’t get much insight from NEVS

            • Actually Steve, the more I think about it, the more I think that in fact we are getting insight from NEVS. Oh, they aren’t coming out and saying it, but if you read between the lines and watch their actions, the insight is that it’s unlikely that significant manufacturing in Sweden is in their plans. They are lifting technology from what used to be Saab and from the Swedish auto industry but it appears they will set up shop in China. The jobs will be in China.

              • Just to be clear. My boss work at AB Volvo which is Swedish company which manufacturers trucks, construction equipment and buses. A stable Swedish employer. And for the jobs. NEVS is recruiting heavily in Sweden. Design and engineering will be in Trollhättan as far as I know. Right now, body in white is produced in Sweden. The rest will be done in China. Naturally, since that is the market. When NEVS go back to the European market I guess production will be in Trollhättan.

    • Yup. As they said: the old 9-3 will be presented along with all these minivans in 2017 for the Chinese market under a different brand name. 2018, brand new cars, aimed, at the global markt and premium segment, will follow – hopefully under the Saab brand

      FW aka GMVMNEVSififif

      • 2017 is next year. They will be selling the 9-3 again and introducing some new minivans? Lots of work to do in a year or so. And then for 2018, they are “aiming” at a global market premium segment? What does that mean? Does that mean they will have product and start selling outside of China? Or that they will finally turn their attention to where it should have been four years ago? Frankly, I’ll believe any of this when I see it. They’ve been really lousy with setting goals and achieving them in this corporation—-about the worst I’ve seen in any industry.

        • it’s all about cash. It’s not fair to put the blame entierly on NEVS. Qingdao local government were the ones who withdrew their support. They are to blame.
          Sure, BMW would hav had better ideas how to deal with Saab. But they were not intereseted in buying them.
          I’m a NEVS sceptic because they failed to adress the current Saab drivers around Europe and North America. Of course on the brink of bankruptcy there is not much to announce but they should have made a clear statement regarding the parts situation and their approach on the triad markets. That’s what I define being a NEVS sceptic, but I would not call them morons or idiots as some on SU did. They do their job. They have released a lot of announcement. Of course I would have favoured much more news about the Saab brand and the European market. But anysway, things start to move in the right direction and I wish them good luck. Although – like you – I won’t trust in any of their announcement until I see brandnew Saab cars in their respective showroom. Let’s hope the best.

          FW aka GMVMNEVSififif

          • Four years ago….three years ago…If I heard them say with some sincerity and believeability that they had a mid range global plan to build new Saabs for North America, England, other traditional markets—-that they were definite about reconnecting with Saab owners in these areas and would work to keep a parts business viable and cooperate with parts and service for the vehicles as they undertook new dealer initiatives—-if they were meeting the auto press regularly, showing us an intent to revitalize Saab for markets who supported Saab—-I might have felt very differently about them. But instead, we got what we got—-which was nothing good.

  11. Please, throwing s… at NEVS staff, is, in my opinon not fair.
    Mistakes, yes, but why not give them a chance to do better?
    Let`s see what they can do and then make the judgement!

    • Infvar: It’s not only their mistakes—-but even their “optimistic rhetoric” is writing on the wall to me that these people have no plan to ever seriously consider returning to my market—-North America. They seem to have abandoned the heart and soul of Saab, turbocharged engines. I never liked their plan from the beginning, and save for building a couple hundred 9-3s after having their arm twisted, their plans have only seem to have gotten worse. I want Saab to completely cut ties with this group and make it very public and very clear that NEVS is not Saab and never will be.

      • if NEVS is that incompetent why don’t you try to acquire the brand rights and rebuild Saab? Wouldn’t it be fun to drive a 2019 Saab 9-5 Angelic?

        FW aka GMVMNEVSififif

        • That would have been nice, but since my plan wouldn’t have been some pseudo-ecological nonsense about building all electric Saabs, I know that the Bankruptcy Receivers in Sweden wouldn’t want to entertain any offer from me. I wasn’t “green” and NEVS is quite obviously VERY green.

      • I could not disagree more. Saab was around before turbo charged engines and I hope they will be in the future. Saab is about embracing change and being on the edge, not living in the passed. I would be immensely proud driving a Saab with an electric engine. If it designed by the same people, with the same driving dynamics, the same progressive design and with the power train for tomorrow, I would definitely call that a Saab.

        • Well, if Saab AB does the right thing, you can call it a Saab if you want, but it won’t legally be one. As for “the present” and “the future” realize that for the time being and likely for the foreseeable future, internal combustion engines and many with turbochargers will outsell EVs by a huge percentage. I’m not sure what future NEVS is looking at—-but if they are aiming to become the Chinese Tesla beginning with the decades old 9-3 fitted with a ton of batteries, they’ll be laughed off that continent the same as they’ve been laughed off this one.

          • It is time for you to understand that “A sells better than B” does not mean that B doesn’t sell at all. Do you know that Model S outsells every other large luxury car model in the US for the last two years and is the only large luxury model which sales grow year on a year? If we follow your “A sells better than B” logic then now every large luxury car in the US should switch to electric.

            • Audi is working on a Electric Q6, BMW next i-Car will be in direct competition with Tesla S, and Merc, well sooner rather than later will also present a car in that range. The ball has started rolling, and although don’t like it, electric cars have come to stay.

              • Mercedes is investing in a new EV architecture which they intend to use for four new electric models, aiming to put the first on sale in 2018. At least that’s what I remember reading, don’t remember if it was an official statement or an insider info.

                • Don’t know either. I also heard that all Merc senior managers will have to drive an EV. And VW wants to build a real Electric People’s Car (Translation of VolksWagen) and …..

                  Electric cars or News Energy Vehicles, as I’ve read lately are here to stay. They will exist side by side with ICE-Cars and nobody will be able to change that.

                  • I wouldn’t even want to change that, Red. I’d strongly consider a Volt for example and I’m in the midst of buying my company car, a Prius, to become a personal car. The more options we have, the better. But an artificial march toward deliberately taking the ICE option away from us in favor of electrics—-THAT I would be opposed to. I’m also opposed to my taxes propping up Tesla and other electrics with $7500.00 tax break incentives on each sale. That means some wage slave driving a 10 year old Corolla and paying taxes—-is helping Buffy and Steve buy an $85,000 Tesla for $77,500. It’s ridiculous. As for all of these companies marching toward electrics—-how is that BMW electric doing, as a percentage of sales, vs. the rest of their fleet?

                  • The question is the time frame and price on full scale for these propulsion systems. We have already the flgw : ICE liquid fuels,ICE regional niche gaseous fuels(e.g CNG),ICE hybrid,plug-in ICE,Range-extended EV:ic engine/fuel-cell,Battery Electric, Fuel- Cell Electric. I am sure that nevs Engineers can develop and produce these cars propulsion systems. Just make your choice . And flwg their release dates. Maybe their 93 BEV is in geneva with the saab/nevs logo parked outside.

                    • Why should they?
                      They have decided to offer one kind of propulsion system and this is fair enough. You don’t like their option, it is also a respectable decision.

                    • When you visit the geneva car show look out for this saab 93 BEV and check his vin plate in the front screen. The first character is a (L) not a (Y) because their Y plates were sold out. And it is not fitted with the former 900 UK LUCAS injection the one which still pull on at 1500 rpm when your take off your foot from the gas pedal. A real nice BEV.

                    • REd : The list given is present situation . All car makers will follow the market trend in their present markets. The market is predicted by the buyer as you will fully understand. What is the nevs planning about the 93 bodies for china?

  12. They’re probably waiting on on borrowed money to pay someone to remove the signs, haha. It’s been a tough five years for the name.

    • Gerrit,
      they are not new, they don’t comment when there is nothing to comment. Not everyone thinks that NEVS is devil because they intend to build EVs only.

      • Yes, we all need to reconsider our criticism of NEVS. They aren’t the devil just because they’re walking away from anything even remotely connected to the Saabs we love, they don’t intend to sell their cars in our markets (assuming they ever actually sell cars) and they are as rude and aloof as can be—-but it’s time to love them.

          • Nor do I want everybody to think alike. We all have opinions and we’re all entitled to them. I think some people here who disagree with me have made some very good points about EVs and have argued very effectively why I might not be right on some of what I’ve said (like wanting Saab’s bread and butter to be an affordable small hatchback—-and some have pointed out that such a car wouldn’t be profitable enough to sustain Saab even as I push for that sort of model). So I don’t claim to be an authority or even right about things—-but I will say, very few people if any have made a cogent argument that NEVS is doing a good job with their acquisition of what used to be Saab Automobile. That’s a very tough position to take, wouldn’t you say?

    • Called the Wild bunch gang with just one goal: Save the core plant . Geely does the same with volvo still there and standing nevs take take some engineers out of them for good money. But reality shows in my country that this violate business can change as the weather.

    • I’ve been an ocasionally guest reader since 2009. In early 2011 when things temporarily looked a bit better I became a regular guest but was too lazy to register. In 2013 and 2014 things looked too bleak and I would not have contributed to a positive atmosphere at SU with my postings. Finally after some better news and my sabbatical http://www.biketoasia.com in 2015, I registered and started to write some posts.

      FW aka GMVMNEVSififif

  13. I think it is important to remember that the frustration with NEVS is aimed at its ownership interests and not at the rank and file engineers, designers, etc. I am sure we all wish for things to work out positively for the folks in Trolhattan, even if that means they support a product that will be sold in China.

    I also think it is important to remember the long and tortured road that NEVS has already gone down. Many see that as full of lost potential and failed opportunities. And I would bet that the suppliers who settled in the bankruptcy were not happy to know that the owners were putting together capital to invest in a plant in China pretty much at the same time NEVS was settling debt for fifty cents on the dollar, and less. Maybe it was all perfectly legal–it just looks really bad.

    Again, I hope that what NEVS can muster will benefit our Trollhattan friends in some way. But I can say that, and mean it, while also saying that I fear that Saab as we have known it is no more, regardless of how the name thing plays out. Ideas like VW coming to the rescue, or Google or Apple or BMW, are a complete fantasy. I know the Saab faithful are looking for a miracle, but we need to be realistic.

    It is almost like we are jilted lovers–how could you (NEVS) dare leave us (the Saab faithful) for Him/Her (China)!!! Did you ever really love us, or were you just pretending, leading us on till you could find someone better? Those who feel jilted are pissed and done with it, and those who still think there is a chance are hanging on, defensively. But it doesn’t do us any good to snip at each other. We can tone that down.

    • I don’t think the suppliers are feeling bad because Nevs is investing in China because they haven’t been deceived. The debt cut was made so that they could attract investors which then helped attract other investors and partners. That’s how business work. If you have been following the things carefully you know that Tianjin paid all the money for their stake only in January this year, before that they paid only a small part, and the contracts with the Chinese banks became official only in the end of last, beginning of this year, before that they were only intends. So the debt was paid with money from Tubitak and probably KJJ himself. They weren’t sitting on piles of cash at the moment. You are making it look as if if a company has gone through a debt cut it should never spend any money in the future. To everyone who says they should invest in Sweden instead of China, because of the suppliers the answer is: well, not exactly. They should invest in their business to make it stable and possibly successful in the future, that’s the point of the reorganization. They are investing in China because they have found market there and made deals there. There new deal supports their old deal and that’s fine. I know many think that Nevs “flirting” with China means they will abandon Sweden, the West, the fans and we will never see or hear from them again, but to me this makes no sense, even purely from business point of view. In the (not so) long term you can’t survive by being present in one market only. The local Chinese companies realize this and that’s why many of them are actively exploring foreign markets. Nevs’s focus on China doesn’t mean abandoning of everything else.

      • Avelik: We’ve already been abandoned by NEVS. You know, when a father walks out on his woman and three kids, it’s called being “abandoned.” Now, the bum might return in a few years with promises of having changed—-but that doesn’t mean they weren’t abandoned, it just means they were abandoned and the bum is back, maybe to try to get the money he forgot that he had stashed in the bathroom ceiling. By not making any attempt at outreach or to resuscitate Saab in this market in the four years that they have owned the carcass, they abandoned us.

        • There was no way to resuscitate Saab in some of the markets and to say there were no attempts to do it in some of the others is not true.

  14. I am well aware of how “business work” as I am a former bank regulator and economist and have spent 35 years in the financial services industry. Of course, my experience is in the US, so I don’t know the vagaries of Swedish law. Nevertheless, as I stated, the entire arrangement may have been totally legal–my point was that the optics were bad for NEVS.

    I guess the proof in all of this will be in the pudding, as they say. We shall see where NEVS’ focus is going forward.

      • Avelik — honestly, how can you NOT think that nevs “management” hasn’t placed Saab in a bad light? What have they done right? I can’t think of a single step they have take that has been positive for the brand. Please enlighten me. I’d truly like to know what you believe nevs has done to further Saab automobile…and the development of an “eco-friendly” electric card doesn’t count, as that remains to be seen. Not being sarcastic or objectionable, I’d truly like to hear your reasoning. Thanks.

        • First of all, I was talking about bad light in the particular situation with the debt reduction. But if you are asking me what they have done right I would tell you this: they have a very sane idea of what they have to do to build up an automotive company. What do automotive companies do? They develop, produce and sell cars. Most of us here would think that buying the assets of Saab already gave them these abilities, but actually the assets are only a part of the picture. They gave them access to some technology, production facility and a large pool of talents from the automotive sector. Now, the technological base wasn’t sufficient and that’s why they have taken several steps to strengthen it. They have sourced battery technology even before the acquisition and have developed it since. After the reorganization they have initiated several partnerships for technological cooperation (with SRIT, Teamsun, Dongfeng, Renesas) and probably there will be more in the future. This has put them in a very different position in terms of technology.

          Now to production. Trollhättan allows them to produce cars but doesn’t give them convenient access to their main market. That’s why Qingdao, and now Tianjin, were attracted as part owners. But that’s not the most important thing. What I think truly shows that they know what they have to do is their partnership with Dongfeng because it is not enough to develop a product and produce it. You need very serious economies of scale and a distribution network to be able to sell the product and make money of it. No technological partner or local government will offer you this. By themselves Nevs would never reach the needed economies of scale and would have a hard time building a distribution network. Partnering with Dongfeng gives them this. This shows that they have industrial thinking and aren’t just dreaming about making cars. I know that for most here Nevs’s partnerships involve just some strange sounding unfamiliar names but actually every name is a well fitting piece of puzzle and has its exact purpose.

          Another important point: some think Nevs don’t have a plan and are just attracting partners according to the opportunity present in a particular moment. Reasons for such thoughs are the changes which happened around the reorganization. I would argue that this isn’t so and although the names of the owners did change the overall strategy remained. If you remember when the Qingdao crisis began Nevs announced they are negotiating with two parties (Mahindra and Dongfeng) for part ownership and technological partnership. Moreover, they said those negotiations had started before the crisis but had to be sped up. So what they had aimed for was to have a local Chinese government (Qingdao) as a part owner to allow them to produce locally, another part owner (Mahindra) to contribute funds, expertise etc. and an industrial partner (Dongfeng) to help with product development, economies of scale etc. The problem with Qingdao didn’t allow for this to develop as planned but after the reorganization what did they end up with? They ended up with a local government as a part owner (Tianjin), another part owner (SRIT), and an industrial partner (Dongfeng). So the overall framework remained the same.

          To put a somewhat repetitive conclusion: what NEVS is doing right is that they have a very good and logical idea as to what needs to be done to build a company from industrial and business point of view, and what is more important – they have accomplished actual steps to turn this idea into reality, as opposed to almost two years ago when they failed to do so.

          • Avelik: That is a very optimistic/encouraging post. I hope it is accurate. Do you think NEVS has been active in making Saab AB aware of their plans and progress? Since the brand name seemed to be important to NEVS at the onset a few years ago, I would think they would keep Saab AB in the loop to assure them that the right steps are being taken—-there have been setbacks like any new business faces, but they have taken corrective measures and continue to keep things on pace and on the right track. If there’s nothing alarming about what has happened, then Saab AB shouldn’t be in any rush to withdraw the naming rights, should they?

          • I respect your enthusiasm, but nevs has had plenty of time to make every point you listed a reality. A real automotive company would have cars (new or old generation) in the market by now. Nevs has been a greater disaster for the Saab brand than GM or Spyker.

            • I’m afraid that what people, and you in the particular situation, mean by ‘real car company’ is actually ‘an established car company’. The thing is that there is huge difference between an established car company and a new one. Nevs is the latter. I would like to see a new car company which has accomplished more than Nevs in a similar time frame. Besides, the development at Nevs hasn’t been uniform, always keeping the same pace. They spent around a year in ‘surviving mode’. So I don’t think they had plenty of time to accomplish plenty of things.

              • Avelik . Nevs bought a real and above all an established car company point other line. Bankrupt or not and demolished. They did a almost rehearsal but ruined It further to a death row. The your so called new car company . If you enter this violate business you should be prepared. Or stay out. Land Rover was in the same situation when it was sold to tata. In about four years as nevs was playing with saab they are now the fastest growing brand.They are run are out of time now to be recognised as a new car company despite their time targets.And with all respect to the tht plant. In belgium three were closed about 10 0000 workers with no solidary feeling from other plants including saab tht. The only thing was a better closing law for the workers. That’s the car business. For me it’s a company working in the cloud every thing can happen they are not real and can be feeled.

                • Jaguar Land Rover wasn’t in the same situation as Saab, very far from it. They were a functioning company, with employees, car production and sales. They had a several modes line up and access to the Ford IP. Nevs didn’t buy a company, they didn’t buy a functioning organization. They didn’t buy a company producing several models, with distribution network and income. And they didn’t buy all the IP Saab had access to. Nevs only had an old model and an unfinished platform and had to build from there. JLR and Saab’s situations were very different.

      • Avelik, I know you are trying to provide a different perspective on this. I really hope you are right and things do work out for the Saab brand. So we have that in common.

        • I detest what NEVS has done—-or maybe what they HAVEN’T done for four years. No secret—-I don’t like their business plan at all and I’m unimpressed with them to the point of calling them incompetent and agreeing with every negative post about them on this forum. All that said—-I think Avelik brings a very important point of view to every discussion we have here. At this point, much of what we are saying is our opinion of events and how we “feel.” Sure, there are some facts too, but a lot of what NEVS is doing or what they MIGHT be doing—-we won’t know if it is effective or not for quite some time. So I say, no, it is ineffective and they will fail. But Avelik has a different point of view. I don’t think he’s saying they will absolutely succeed, but he is saying it’s too soon to know if something good will come out of this or not—-and that none of us know enough to say definitively that NEVS has blown it or are about to fold. He supports his beliefs quite well. Some people have blind faith and just want NEVS to make a Saab—-so they have convinced themselves, like zombies, that all is well and the naysayers are wrong. Avelik is not one of them—-he has sound reasoning behind his posts. Doesn’t mean he’s right, but my point is that it’s an important viewpoint and he’s able to articulate it. As we “keep calm and carry on” having the pro NEVS and anti-NEVS back and forth is about all we can do.

          • Angelo, you are on retreat. I am disappointed with you 😉 But one thing you could learn from Aveliks way of reasoning; don’t label others opinions in a pejorative way. Please correct me if I am wrong, but I don’t see any comments in this forum expressing blind faith or otherwise expressing themselves as zombies. To hope is not the same as expressing blind faith. I think the last half year or so, gave us lot more to hope for.

            • I disagree Hakan. I have seen posts here over the years, including not that long ago—where people have grasped the tiniest morsel of news from NEVS and stated that “things are moving in the right direction” or “Hurray, this is great news!” and that sort of thing. It’s euphoria without any basis in reality in my opinion. The “fingers crossed” thing is what you describe. But I’ve seen proclamations that border on ridiculous.

              • Yes, probably those kind of people exists. I haven’t counted the number of blindly positive and negative posts here. But when it comes to borderless proclamations for any of the sides my impression is that the naysayers that seems to perceive NEVS as the incarnated evil on earth, far outnumber the blind believers. However, my main concern is not whether people are blind believers or not, its the pejorative wording that disturbs me. I don’t ask for moderation. But I do ask for respectful arguing.

                Speaking for myself I take a “fingers crossed” stance on NEVS business, that includes also the brand issue. Certainly, I don’t like to see the saab badge on some crap. But from what I have seen so far, I see no reason to stop hoping for future saabs or 9-3s or any other brand that will still possess some truly Saab DNA. You are mostly right in your conclusion in the (previous) post. but I like to rephrase it slightly to, it’s too soon to know if something bad will come out of this or not.

                Have a nice weekend

  15. Angelo, shame on you for leaving out the redesign of the seats, the ones that decreased kneeroom in the rear. Don’t sell NEVS short!

    One of the presidential candidates in the US recently said that he had “won” third place in a primary. Talk about spin. Maybe NEVS can use his PR folks to better spin on their actions.

    • As long the NEVS PR folks do not act as real spin doctors, disingenuous.deceptive,and manipulative tactics. I just wait for production for saabs to be made.

      • Monique, if nevs PR folks acted as spin doctors, they would at least give the illusion that something was actually being accomplished. As it is now, nevs just looks dead in the water…which I believe it is. Right or wrong, perception is reality.

          • And live is just believe in the illusion which never will be real. it’s just an illusion. Or fata morgana.

            • Those who understand Swedish can almost weekly read about NEVS in Trollhättan local newspaper. The company has exciting things going on.

              • Then “the company” is really awful—-because they do NOTHING to share this good news themselves. Have you been to their joke of a website? They’re incompetent. Period.

                • Yes I been, and under the headline News you can se some.
                  I visited them when they had open house, saw what they wanted to show and listened to what they had to say. I experienced no incompetence.

                  • That’s nice to hear, but in 4 years, we’ve seen no evidence that they are on task. They were in bankruptcy last year. They were jerked around by Qingdao and looked foolish in that escapade. They’re not showing exciting concepts, apparently not at auto shows, website doesn’t show sketches or development of things they might be working on, they don’t talk much to the automotive press, they don’t seem to be ambitious about expanding into Saab’s old markets—-seems to be some guys constantly on the prowl for “investments” and they draw a salary but nothing much seems to get done when it comes to making and selling cars.

                    • It takes time to develop a new car model. And, as soon as they show a new concept, the clock starts ticking on the design. If a release is not imminent, many customers might feel the design looks old by the time they get to the test drive.

                      The same holds true had they had vastly bigger resources. There aren’t any immediate fixes for this situation.

                    • Hi rune back on the high live again on this site where everything happens. you are right and angelo is right. And nevs is a mission impossible due to lack of : you name it. Let a modern plant idle such along time in itself is a: you name it. By taking out some good engineers from the competition is: you name it.Some said we should read the local trollhattan newspaper for the exciting things. i repeat exciting things. Who is blindfolding here?

                    • According the recent Swiss referendum they can pull you out of the country after two fines and not paying tax. Whole swiss is run by multinationals .

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